5 Tried and True Real Estate Strategies (and How to Determine Which Is Right For You)
In this episode, we cover, at a high level, the top 5 investment strategies and who they might best work for. --- Transcript Michael: Everybody and welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael and today I'm joined by my co hosts, Tom: Tom Schneider Emil: and Emil Shour Michael: and today we're gonna be talking about some different strategies that you could pursue with your real estate investing. So I think a lot of people are very familiar with a couple different strategies, but today we're gonna be talking about high level what the different strategies are, and what might be a good fit for you if you're just getting started. So let's get into it. So, in this episode, guys, I want to talk about five major strategies, your categories, if you will. So I talked about wholesaling, fix and flipping bur in long term buy and hold or just rather buy and hold and then we're gonna end with house hacking. Emil: Guys before we start talking about these topics, I want to give a quick shout out to K winters 34 who left us an awesome review recently, I've been listening to this podcast for the past year since it started I cannot say enough good things the hosts interact in a light hearted manner to make it a very easy Listen, I have learned a ton and it reinforces my belief that this is the way to financial freedom. Thank you so much. Awesome review. Appreciate it. I'm with you. This is my path to financial freedom as well. So leave us a review. We'll give you guys a shout out in a future episode. Michael: Thanks so much. Kay winters I guess my mom was right. I do have a face made for radio. Tom: Oooooh! Emil: There you go. That lightheartedness coming out. Michael: So Tom, do you want to kick things off and talk to us a little bit about wholesaling. Tom: Wholesaling, yes. So I think before getting into some of the pros and cons, we're gonna put a definition out of these different strategies. So with wholesaling This is a really interesting industry and basically what this is, is this you are getting a property into contract and then selling the contract and the difference between that sale price and what you sell it for that's what you're making as your commission so you're never actually taking title and owning the property you're doing sort of an arbitrage where you're getting right in between so there are some states where it's there's a little bit more nuanced the technical aspects but but at a very high level you know, you're not buying the property you are selling that property and I'm sure a lot of you who own properties or have seen signs on the on the road that says we buy ugly houses, those are all forms of wholesaling. And I get in my mailbox every day guaranteed like a couple of letters that was written by a robot that made it look like it was a handwritten saying I'm looking to buy your property in blah blah blah. And these are just wholesalers, it's their game and you may get phone calls to like hey, I'm a local investor interested these are wholesalers and as an owner I find it kind of annoying a little bit it just you know just creates a lot of clutter in my mail and my voicemail, Emil: Okay Tom. Tom: In all of this stuff so nothing against wholesaling I guess maybe something against wholesaling. Jamming got my inbox. Emil: Yeah, dude, you're definitely got something against wholesaling. Tom: Yeah, you're right. Michael: You're raining on a meal's parade, man. Tom: It's funny. I'm. Oh Emil! Well, you know, he's using some of the techniques as a wholesaler but he's not wholesaling, though, right? He's looking to buy it. Michael: Yes, Tom: Wholesaling is good honest work and what is I'm going to just keep kind of riffing on wholesaling, wholesaling. Oftentimes, these people are looking for quick sailors. And man, I was at a real estate conference and I heard this acronym talking about wholesaling, and it was kind of dark, but I think it's like kind of true. Like, it's I think it's like death divorce. And there's like one more D like death is with a lot of people who are trying to sell quickly. It's like some traumatic event happen, and they're just looking for someone to buy it pretty quickly. That's where wholesalers are, I'd say like pretty active. I personally wouldn't ever want to sell to a wholesale, hopefully I don't I'm not in a position I need to just because if you're selling to a wholesaler, you're often selling below what the market value is, you know, and the upside of doing that is you'll be able to sell very quickly but I wouldn't recommend okay enough talking about my personal thoughts on wholesaling. But anyways, Tom rant on wholesaling done over the air, somebody call here quick. Emil: Wholesaling has gotten a bad rap. There's a lot of bad wholesalers out there, but the good ones, they find people who were in some type of distress, like you mentioned, they have a death in the family and divorce. They're trying to get rid of a property. Maybe it's someone who can't afford their mortgage anymore, whatever it may be, and they help that person get out of distress or they can right. A lot of times wholesaled homes are not in very good condition. Like if you're an owner and you needed to sell your property and it's in good shape. You could probably just go list it right but it needs a lot of work. If you need a quick sale. All those things also can actually be a great option for those people. Yes, you're not going to get top dollar, but it potentially gets you out of a hairy or difficult situation for you as the owner So they, you know, I know they get a bad rap, but they do have a place and a purpose, I think. And on the flip side, they help investors who don't do this acquisition effort on their own, they help those investors who are looking for distressed properties need some work, whatever it may be, they help them find that and in return, they get that difference that you mentioned. Right? So wholesaler finds a property gets it under contract for 50 k has a list of investors, one investor agrees to pay 75 K and the wholesaler made at $25,000 for doing all the marketing all the work that was required to get that contract, which is a lot of work to get one contract, let me tell you, so that's kind of the value that the wholesaler brings to the table. Emil: So great synopsis. Tom do you have something to add? Tom: You do want to get on the list of the buyers of wholesalers. I mean, wholesaling is good hard work. You're blasting out a ton of people trying to get it, you know, very low percentage high volume game of actual conversion. But if you don't have capital to buy a property like this could be a way to get in the action as a wholesaler. Emil: Exactly. Michael: That was getting me my question who should consider being a wholesaler? And who should consider buying from wholesalers? Yeah, so Tom, I think you just touched on who you know, who should consider being a wholesaler is someone who doesn't have capital to get in the game, their own capital getting game, this is a good way to generate some cash. But understand that you do need to go understand the local rules and laws governing real estate transactions in your market because they do vary like you were talking about. So make sure you go understand those before doing anything. But so then who would be a good person to utilize a wholesaler as a buyer? Tom: I mean, I think anyone an acquisition, right? I don't know. Do you have any preconceived answers to this question? I mean, Michael: No asking for a friend. Tom: Sure. That's what they say Michael asking for a friend. Michael: I mean, like Emil, you were touching on if you're on the buying side, and don't do this on your own very regularly, it can be a good way to go. It's just tough because a lot of times those types of investors buying from wholesalers are looking for under market deals. And if the wholesaler is making a spread in the middle, a lot of times that value can already have been extracted from the property. So I think anybody could be on the list as a buyer for wholesalers. And just evaluate the deals they're sending you make sure that there's still enough meat on the bone for you. Because a lot of times, like you're saying, Emil, all these properties need rehab, and you're buying them under market value. So make sure that you're still buying them under market value and the rehab you're doing when that's done, there's still equity spread in the property. Emil: That's the key. It's like if the wholesaler is usually going to, you know, let's hear on the wholesalers list. They're gonna say I have a property three bed, two bath x square footage. Here's what I'm selling it for. Here's the estimated rehab. And then here's the after repair value, retail price, I would say the person who should be buying from the wholesaler is someone who really knows the rehab numbers, like if you have pictures you can have in your head say, Okay, this is what I think it will be. Never take the wholesalers estimate to be true, right? Like a lot of times they know the numbers that need to work to make it look like it's going to be a great deal. But you need to know your numbers. So I would say if you're brand new, I would I would be very cautious about going and buying from a wholesaler and see if you've done a couple rehabs yourself you're like, you know your market, you know, whatever rehab budgets within a margin of safety, then I think it's probably safer to go to a wholesaler as my two cents. Michael: Love it. Tom: I like that recommendation too. Yeah, good call. Michael: Okay, so let's move on to our next strategy, which is fix and flip. So a meal Do you want to start us off by talking and defining what a fixin flipper is? Emil: Yeah, so it's similar in a sense to wholesaling in that you are typically finding a property that is in distress and need some work, you can buy it for under market, and then instead of flipping the contract to somebody else, you're buying the property, you're doing the renovation yourself, and then you're making your money on the sale, once it hits that after repair value that we mentioned with the wholesaler right? So you buy a property for $100,000 and needs $50,000 worth of work and you estimate you can sell it at 225 so now you're making 75 k on that slip you know obviously minus all the fees you pay when you sell but the idea is that you actually buy it you fix it yourself and then you flip it either to you can flip it to an investor you can flip it to an owner occupant, you're doing the whole process yourself. Michael: Awesome and thoughts on who makes good fix and flippers as a strategy? Emil: This is another way to make money faster I would say you know with like buy and hold it's typically like you know you're playing a longer game with fix n flip you need capital, or you need hard money, either one, but typically, it's like you have some capital and you're looking to to make short term profit versus holding long term and making cash flow and appreciation all that so I guess it depends on are you trying to make money in the short term or are you trying to do a long term hold and make money and compound over time? Michael: And on that too, just keeping in mind that the money that you earn from a flip profit is taxed very differently than the money you earn from rental income. Emil: Yes Just be aware of that when you're counting your numbers. In that example you gave in that $75,000 profit, you know, minus your closing costs, let's forget that for a minute. But that 75,000 is going to be taxed very differently than if you made 75,000 in a year from rental income. So just be aware of that when you're when you're running your numbers. Emil: Right. Tom: I guess we’ll meander into pros and cons. So two huge risk variables in the fix and flipper, one of them is on the property themselves. You know, if you're buying a fix and flip, there's likely some major things that need to be fixed. And unless you're really good at estimating those costs, then you could get underwater very quickly, where you're end up, you know, paying more. So that's a major risk, I wouldn't recommend doing this remotely, I wouldn't recommend doing this if you don't have a construction background, or you're not partnering with a very strong construction, skilled acumen you know, partner. So that's one other risk, one risk, and the other one, I think is getting your hand in the cookie jar, if like the market was to turn, unlike a long term buy and hold where the risks of the value going up and down are going to smooth out a little bit… Michael: Peanut butter spread! Tom: Peanut butter, chunky, smooth, now we're talking about smooth peanut butter. More of a chunky guy myself… Anyways, okay, you in doing, buy, fix and flip, you're just way more at risk to fluctuations in the market. So those are two really important variables that you are opening yourself to risk in doing this fix and flip strategy. But there are people that do it and make a lot of money with it. But I know there's also people who do it and bite off a little bit more than they can chew. A huge, really important aspect of a fixin flip strategy is speed of redeploying capital. So with a property that you're doing a fix and flip on, oftentimes people will count their returns on a yearly basis. So like, let's say, I'm doing this with $100,000. And I, you know, buy a property, fix it up. And I turn that capital over multiple times, instead of just say making like a 15%, or 20%, or 10%, whatever that number is, if I redo that same compound that multiple times in a year, that's how successful flippers make money is being able to move very quickly, because the the holding cost of capital is pretty high, especially if you're borrowing money. And having done some consulting for companies that do flips like this, like a really key metric that they're following, you know, not as closely as, obviously, the dollars and keeping that inside, but it's totally related is how quickly can they get the property rent ready, you know, get to the market, and then how many days on market it is and so they can take the money from the sale and just redo it again, and rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Michael: And Tom, those are really great points, any tips for folks on how they can mitigate some of the risk associated with the market volatility while they're doing a flip? Tom: I think where there is seasonality, you know, kind of like if you can kind of time your completion of projects out to be where properties are most marketable, which oftentimes is in the spring after the school season. But if you're racing through doing these fix and flips as fast as you can, that maybe that doesn't matter as much, you're just trying to move as quickly as possible, I would say, know your lane, like know what you can estimate really well like, again, the ability to estimate those costs, and avoid the kind of unknown costs as much as you can, is just really, really important. And I mean, anyone who's exercising this strategy successfully knows that Yeah, but uh, if you are going to do it know, your cost really well know your cost basis. Michael: And just to add to that, to kind of alley-oop myself, I would say, evaluate every flip as a long term, buy and hold. So that if things do go south, while you're mid flip, you can just hold the property, rented out cash, flow it, and then flip it, do your flip portion at a later date. Tom: I'm going to drop another one of these real estate conference comments. So I think it was talking with some of these folks who were fixing flippers, and a lot of them just ended up turning into buy and hold. And to Michael's point, if the market does go south, a lot of these people who are doing fix and flips ended up just to being long term, buy and hold, investors liked it. Michael: And so just the thing to be aware of is making sure that your capital, however you're funding these deals, you have the ability to convert it into long term financing, or it's you can still hold on to it. And the deal still makes sense, which leads kind of segues very nicely into our next strategy, which is the BRRRR method. And Emil, I know you're working on one of these right now. So can you define for us what the BRRRR is? Emil: I'm doing a cheater BRRRR where interest rates have plummeted and home values are skyrocketing. So traditionally, in a BRRRR it's buy, renovate, rent, refinance, repeat, it's kind of like flipping but to a bank is the best way to think about it. So you buy a home that's distressed needs work. So you buy it for under market value you put in your rehab to improve the property and then you take it to a bank to refinance out most or all of your capital and then the last are being repeat. So you go and do that process over and over again and especially after I think like 2010 and currently like, because the market bottomed out and started going back up for years and years and years, this was a very, very, very popular strategy people were using to quickly grow a portfolio. There's a lot of like, nuance and details into how do you do this correctly. So you can pull out most if not all of your capital, but that's the gist of of how this works and why people use it. Michael: Okay, and so who would this be a good strategy for and who might this not be a good strategy for? Emil: I think it's probably similar to wholesaling and fix and flip in that I think it's best for someone who knows the rehab budget, right, it's really easy to mess up the rehab budget, or 10, think you're getting a deal when you're not. And then you think the after repair value, right is going to be higher than it, it could be. So there's just a lot of learning that comes with this. I don't know if you know someone does on their first try, they get it perfect. But I think it just, you know, you got to say I'm willing to take that risk and get your feet wet with it. And the two big variables are knowing your after repair value, what is it going to appraise for and the rehab required to get there, and then do the numbers work in that formula. Michael: Mhm. And I would say to this is definitely for someone who, who wants to take on some risk, who likes a project, but you mentioned about not getting it perfect. And kind of being leery of that, I think it's really important, again, to identify the numbers and to really call out what that means even if you do miss the mark. So if you buy a property for 50 K, and you put 30 into it, now you're 80 into it. And so you know, you think it'll appraise for 100. And so you can go get a loan at 80% loan to value and get all of your 80 k back, let's say it only appraises for 90. So if it appraises for 90, you're gonna go get 80% of a 90 k loan, you'll get $72,000 back, which means you left eight k in the deal, which still probably isn't too bad. I mean, if you run the numbers on the return on investment on that deal, that could be fantastic. And then if you were to go buy that same $9,000 property at 20% down, you'd have to put in 18,000. So you get to have this property for only, you know, set whatever 7.2 or 8000, whatever number I said. So it can still be a really great strategy. Even if you missed the mark, you just don't want to miss really big, Emil: Right. Tom: This is good for growth mode Brr. So like if you don't need the cash flow now, because in the process of doing a Brr, you are increasing your monthly debt obligation. Now you might net making it and have more cash flow, you should add when you're done with slipping that new refinanced capital that you're getting out of it into a new property, you should cash flow more, but in between time, you are increasing the amount of debt that you owe on the property, so your monthly payments is going to be a little bit higher. So I think it's a fantastic way to grow faster and leverage appreciation by doing the whole refinance aspect of the BRRRR. But if you're in a position where you don't want to increase your total debt, and you want to have as high as loan to value ratio as possible, than doing that refinance aspect of BRRRR, which is really the key are in BRRRR strategy is maybe not the right fit. Michael: Perfect. Emil: The only thing I was gonna add is that I forgot to mention, typically investors when they're buying, they're doing it all cash. So that's another thing to think about cash helps you buy from the seller quicker, right? So that makes your value prop to the seller better. And if the home really does need a lot of rehab, the bank oftentimes may not lend on that because it needs a lot of work. It's riskier for them. So that's one of the other caveats is you know, you need that capital, a lot of times you're buying these properties all cash to to do the deal on the front end. Michael: And something else along those lines, keep in mind is that lenders often have requirements about how long you have to own the property for before they'll give you a refinance. So definitely ask that question and have that conversation on the front end before you purchase the property. Because the last thing you want is to get buy a property, you already have it for a month, and then you can go get your money 30 days later, when in reality, it might be six months to a year. So you just want to run your numbers while you're owning the property for however you financed it at the beginning, however you purchased it, and then also run your numbers about after you put debt on this thing. What does that property performance look like? And make sure those numbers make sense in both situations. So let's shift gears here and talk about house hacking. Tom, do you want to give a kind of high level definition of what that is and talk to us about who might be a good candidate for a house hack? Tom: Yeah, so a house hack is you are buying a property to live in and you're renting out either the other rooms or perhaps it's a duplex or triplex the other units or perhaps there's maybe even two little houses on the property Isn't that nice? A little community but, at a high level house hack is you're living in one room unit and somebody else's living in the other room unit or the other little house we're so fortunate to have that Michael: But Tom this show is is called remote real estate investor if I'm buying a primary that's not real estate investing. Tom: Well, Michael, I'm hoping you're alley-ooping yourself because I just I missed you threw up for me to dunk. Michael: I wasn't an intentional alley-oop, I thought it was a lob, but I think it's definitely a hybrid of both… Tom: I was looking the other way! Michael: You know, it's it's definitely a hybrid approach in that you get to cover your own housing needs, expenses, often with rental income. So you get to experience being a landlord, whilst getting your owner occupant financing, which is the best type and cheapest type of financing available, and you get to live somewhere. So I think it's, it's a really, really cool hybrid approach. And it's got a lot of benefits and allows you to toe dip into being an investment property owner without having to do that fully. And so you get to kind of hold it close to your vest have some degree of control. And so this is we're talking about who might this be a good strategy for who might this not be a good strategy for? Well, this is definitely not for a remote real estate investor. Because by definition, you can't be remote and do this you have to go by be an owner occupant to begin with, at least what you do after the fact is totally up to you. But you need to go live in the property and living it. Tom: You know, cool kind of related to this strategy that a lot of cities are getting looser around guidelines of allowing ADUs. So you could buy a house, and it's just the house and you're living in it with whatever your family or whatnot or your friends. And then you can build a small little dwelling units. And there's so many cool companies popping up that allows that does these prefab little houses. So you could even back into this strategy, not even planning on it, you know, necessarily upfront when you buy your house. But there's a lot of tailwinds and supporting kind of a reverse a lighthouse hack, with cities getting friendlier of building these small units, as well as companies that build these small units getting cheaper and better and faster. Michael: Awesome. Tom: And it's something that we're like kind of considering, you know, putting a little ADU, in-law unit. Michael: Yeah. And so for those who might not be familiar, what is an ADU? Tom: ADU stands for accessory dwelling unit. Michael: Awesome. And so Emil, who do you think would be a bad candidate for a house hack other than you know, someone who wants to be a remote real estate investor, Emil: I don't think there's a such thing as a bad candidate. Michael: Booom!! Emil: I will tell you personally, that like, if you're cool with it, you should 100% do it. I will tell you, personally, I'm married, I have a kid at this point in my life. It's not something I'm interested in, I would have loved to have done this when I was single or whatever, you know, didn't have kids. But now it's like, we have a home, we have a backyard. We have our own space. I like that. If you are in the same situation as me and you're like, I still wanted like power to you go do it. There's no reason you shouldn't or couldn't do this. It's really just about personal preference, I would say. Michael: Yeah. And like Tom, you were mentioning, the space aspect can lend itself really well to this. If you have two properties, you know, two single family homes in the same lot or a duplex, triplex or quad, you know, you can still often have your own space, you've just got to decide if that's something that you're okay with based on the setup of the property. Emil: Yeah, Michael: But definitely look for opportunities. You know, large lots are great, zoned multifamily, lots are great. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity out there, especially like what you were mentioning, with cities changing guidelines and regulations around adding additional ad use. Yeah. Emil: Yeah, so many people in our community are converting their garages to an edu. I honestly would love to do that. But are we have a detached garage that's in the backyard. If it was in the front, it's kind of like they're separate. They have their own entrance and stuff, but with the backyard, it kind of changes it. So we've decided to hold off on converting into a deal now but a lot of people in our community are doing it. Michael: Right on. Alright, so let's shift gears here, guys to our final and probably bread and butter topic, the buy and hold strategy. So Emil, do you want to walk us through what the buy and hold is? And then Tom, maybe you can take us through who might be and who might not be a good candidate for this strategy. Emil: Michael, I would love to but you know what, I'm gonna pass the baton back to you. You know, Tom and I have been carrying the load this entire time. And you know what? Tom: Oooooh! Emil: It hurts. You're up? Michael: Are you guys's backs exhausted from carrying the team? Tom: Yeah, and Michael's out here doing all this fancy alley loops and crossovers and we're gonna do it to you Michael. Learn to shoot a free throw Michael shoot a free throw. Michael: The ironic the ironic thing in all of this is that I like I suck at basketball. It was like that and volleyball were the ones like the two sports I just never could get good at and I remember I always like I shoot the basketball from my chest. It's how I throw at people like really? like really? Like you're like You're a grown man. Tom: I have weird body control like I think like repeating like a little action great at it but like basketball they called me technical Tom because I like I don't think I like had good at it. I would just a flail little bit. Emil: Oh god. Michael: Now I don't feel so bad. Tom: I get rebounds. You know? Michael: Yeah, I'm a good passer. That's for sure. Tom: In unethical ways. Okay, sorry. Go ahead. Michael: All right. So the buy and hold strategy is at its Crux kind of in the definition. So it involves buying a property and literally just holding on to it for some certain amount of time. And there's you might have often hear different time periods associated with this. You may hear the short term buy and hold the long term buy and hold So, for me personally, a short term buy and hold is anything inside of five years and a long term buy and hold is anything north of 10, seven to 10 years, I would say. And so you buy it, you hold it or whatever your goal is, whether that's appreciation, or cash flow, and collect those things, whether it's cash flow, you're hopefully collecting cash that whole time. And if it's appreciation play, you're hopefully gaining appreciation inside of that time. And then you can decide what to do with it. Once you've accomplished your goal, whether that's a cash flow number and appreciation number, you can decide to sell it and utilize it maybe a 1031 exchange, or you can refinance it and tap into some of the equity, which is kind of what Emil was alluding to previously, that he's got a BRRRR without the renovation is he got lucky and bought well, and there's been a lot of appreciation in the area. So that in itself is what a buy and hold is. So you guys want me to keep talking about pros and cons of who might be a good candidate? Emil: Yeah, go for it, man, we'll just chip in. Tom: Sure. So I would say a good candidate for buy and hold is anybody with a decent time horizon, if you are looking to make money yesterday, or tomorrow for the next thing, then buy and hold is probably not going to be a good fit for you. This is definitely a slow and steady wins the race type of strategy. And as Tom, you always say, to get rich, long term greedy, right. So it's, it's a very slow process, it's definitely not overnight, so don't expect things to change rapidly. And so if you're someone that is looking for that rapid growth, this is probably not a good fit for you. But you could definitely combine a couple of these strategies like the BRRRR method with a long term buy and hold, you can buy a property, then you hold on to for a long time. And so you can you can grow really rapidly that way. But just in and of itself, buying a property sitting on it, you don't tend to see rapid changes very quickly. So just know that. So Alternatively, you know, this could be a really great strategy for anybody that's got a long enough time horizon that doesn't necessarily want to be super active with their investment strategy. They just want to buy something and hold on to it kind of like a stock and just let it do its thing over the years, this is a perfect strategy for you. So if you have some capital to start to make a purchase, so you can partner with someone that has but you don't, this can be a really phenomenal strategy. And you look back in 5,10, 15 years about on the investment you thinking, Man, that was awesome. You know, this was such a great investment. I'm so glad I did this 5, 10, 15 years ago, hopefully, is the sentiment not tarnished. Why did I buy that stupid thing 5, 10 15 years ago. But I think given a long enough time horizon, if we look at historics and values and what they've done, again, given a long enough time horizon, they've gone up significantly. And when you compare that against the stock market, when you compare your total return in real estate against the stock market returns, I think people are very pleasantly surprised with how real estate performs as a general asset class solid. How did you guys? Emil: Nailed it? Tom: You did great. You. You made both of the free throws, they …swish! Emil: From the chest! Michael: I did? Did the grandma bounce into the bucket? Tom: Hey, don't knock it if it works, man. Don't knock it if it works. That's it. Michael: That's what I'm saying. Tom: Yeah, I agree with everything Michael said. I mean, the way that I think about it kind of long term is I'm looking for something with pretty low overhead. I'm not doing it to make another job. I'm doing it to create wealth and just kind of build this machine that when I'm ready to turn on the spigot for just, you know, to live off of I can I can do that if I want to, or I can continue to work if I want to. It's just that optionality is with a is what I'm just trying to build with my long term buy and hold strategy. Michael: You can work if you want to. Tom: Sure. Yeah. Michael: Por que, no? So something to just keep in mind to final thought is that these are some high level strategies that are available to folks be thinking about what interests you if you're unfamiliar with any of them. If you've already mastered some, you can think about expanding your tool belt into others. And also keep in mind that a lot of these can be combined into one another and mix and match. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But I would definitely say if you're starting out, just be cognizant of getting smooth peanut butter spread too thin across too many avenues, it can happen very quickly, you can get shiny object syndrome. So pick one, go learn about it, see if it's a good fit for you and look to pursue that because you can very easily get distracted. All right, everybody. That was our episode. Thank you so much for listening, feel free to give us a rating and review wherever it is. You'll see your podcasts. Those are really helpful for us and we'd love to hear feedback from you all, as well as any episode ideas that you want to hear more about. So thanks so much for listening. We'll catch you on the next one. Happy investing Emil: Happy investing! Tom: Happy investing.