Market Deep Dive: Charlotte North Carolina with Danny Plueddemann
Tom and Michael talk with Danny Plueddemann from Home Vault Property Management about the Charlotte Market. --- Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. Today we're here with Danny Plueddemann, when we're going to be talking about the Market of Charlotte. Tom: Okay, before we get into the interview with Danny, we're gonna hit on some numbers talk about the quantitative aspects of the market and Charlotte. So at a very high level, the population in Charlotte is 872,000 people. This is from the Census Bureau in 2018. The greater MSA population in Charlotte is just over 2 million 2,054,000. This is from 2020 from macro trends, and we're seeing a population growth of 4.21%. And this is also from macro trends, the median household income, and this is from John Burns is $63,400. And this is an improvement from last year. That was it 63,000. The number of units we see in Charlotte is over a million This is 1,049,329. And as a breakdown of ownership, 60% of the properties are owner occupied, while 31% of the properties are renter occupied, and then the remaining eight percentage is vacant homes. A little more information on home prices and rent, the existing home values is increased 7.6%. And this is coming again from John Burns in the September 2020. Report, the home value for entry level home is at $214,000 700. The existing median home price is 286,700. And both of those metrics are again coming from John Burns. The median single family rent is that $1,388 again from John Burns, and the year over year rent growth is 3.7%. And again, this is coming from John Burns, the home occupancy rate is that 93.4% and the apartment occupancy rate is 93.7%. Again, both of these metrics coming from John Burns. Danny, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Before we start getting into Charlotte, let's get a little bit into yourself. Let's tell us a little bit about your background. What makes you an expert. What are you doing in Charlotte today and all that good stuff. Danny: Thanks, Tom. Yeah, so I call Charlotte my adopted hometown talking about that I've been here longer than anybody else but 20 years and everybody hears a transplant everybody's I'm a Yankee that knows the Yankee till I moved to Charlotte. But yeah, I mean, in property management, I worked for the big banks for a while I did mortgages for a little while. I've been in property management for last 15 years. We just did a exciting merger so we're Home Vault property manager in six different markets, five different states. So that's really exciting. I am the Chief Investment Officer which I'm trying to decide what my job titles I think I told you I like yours Tom, your Investor? Tom: Yeah, that's right. Director of Investor Education, getting help helping people out in the business to serve. Danny: Yeah, I might steal yours. It's funny as I was doing my email signature yesterday and Chief Investment Officer sounds so pretentious that I changed it to investment guy and I was like, man, nobody's asked that's not serious enough. Yeah, so now I'm an investment officer in my in my email signature. But yeah, property management focus on helping the landlord so if you're happy landlord I want to help you buy more properties. If you're not happy I want to come come up some alternatives for you either you know buying the property from you selling to one of our existing clients, Master leasing the property something to take away the pain points that's what I'm doing now. Tom: Alright, let's go ahead and jump into it. So the market of Charlotte so as a first step tell us about kind of the main primary cities and some of the core principal cities within the metro go ahead and yeah, let's let's do it. Unknown Speaker Yeah, Charlotte is a great town. Let's see here. We're about as far south as you can be and still have four seasons we got winter, spring, fall, summer, that's fun. Just but everybody's from somewhere else. That's the fun thing about it. We got Florida halfbacks people they thought they wanted to retire in Florida was too hot. So they move halfway back to New York, they're in Charlotte. Now. surrounding towns are like, like Gastonia Concord, Kannapolis up north. Gastonia is West, Monroe down south. Michael: So Danny. I'm gonna jump here for just a second. So I lived in the Bay Area, California outside San Francisco for a long time. Tom's a bay area guy. Everybody knows the bay area for Silicon Valley. Most people move to the area for tech. So is there a similar draw for these transplants out into Charlotte or is it kind of a mixed bag? Danny: Yeah, there's some cool comparisons with California. We can we can talk about that. Yeah, job. So finance sector is the biggest, biggest employer we have. Bank of America is headquartered here. Wells Fargo used to be headquartered here before San Francisco stol it from us. Yeah, so the first gold rush actually wasn't in California. It was in Charlotte. Michael: Really? Danny: Yeah. So there's, we're still we're still competing. And I was gonna ask you guys If you if you don't know, I'm going to say Charlotte is the second largest bank in town after New York. But I think we go back and forth with San Francisco. Who's the bigger after? Tom: I didn't realize there were so many parallels with San Francisco and Charlotte, the gold rush the huge financial sector. Sorry for interrupting. Danny: I think it's related. I don't know this for sure. But you know, we have a mint here like since we had the mines here, the gold mines here that were us men here, there's a man in San Francisco. I think that's the connection. They're just after they had the mint there that attracted the banks. And yeah, we're huge banking town. That's what we're known for. By the way, we're the first ones to declare independence. A lot of people don't know this. But for us, Independence Day is may 20 1775. Everybody else celebrates June, 4 of July, we had a declaration of independence, unfortunately called the resolves, like we do here by results. So that's horrible marketing. Nobody's gonna pick up on that. And then we lost the original. So that was, you know, we don't get any credit. But yeah, we're the hornet's nest of rebellion for England's that's why we at the Charlotte Hornets basketball team. And then for the Gold Rush, like the UNC Charlotte, University of North Carolina Charlotte university that the mascot is the 40 Niners the miners 49. So that's kind of the connection there with San Francisco. I'll tell you what's different, you know, San Francisco, you got the ocean on one side, and then you get the mountains on the other side. So as far as supply it’s really limited, we don't have that we got we were in the Piedmont Valley. So we can we can grow any direction, every direction. So there's no limit there. So there's much more supply. So obviously, that's keeps prices down. Atlanta is the same thing. They can sprawl and they have been forever. So a lot of investors looking at Atlanta when they're trying to figure out what Charlotte's gonna look like, in 20 years. They go hang out in Atlanta, and look at the traffic there. And then, you know, eventually the barrier to growth, its growth is traffic, you know, every exit get farther from downtown is a little bit more expensive. Tom: Well, that's a good transition question. So talking about the major transportation within Charlotte, so there's big international airport. Why don't we touch on that, you know, trains, planes and automobiles like kind of the different major infrastructure as it relates to travel? Danny: Well, you guys can tell I'm a history buff. We got a lot of trains here because we had a lot of textile mills here after those cotton. So yeah, we got trains going north and south here with originally was to take cotton everywhere. It was actually a big rail yard then the Civil War, the Confederates used this as a rail yard. And then yeah, the airport's huge, American Airlines has a hub here. So you know, if you're flying anywhere in the southeast, you probably come through Charlotte. It's just the way that airlines schedule things with what's it called a Hub Network, something like that. Yeah. So yeah, and then you're exactly right. You know, the trucking. There's a lot of big trucking companies headquartered here for the same reasons I think it's just the trains come in trucks take them out. There's a lot of transportation is it's helped us diversify the economy from banking a lot, Tom: You know, kind of, I think, as Michael was alluding to, there's a lot of universities in like, the tech space has been a really booming piece as well. Danny: The bad guy is Riley. I think you're getting those confused with rally because they got some better schools up there. You know, there's UNC Chapel Hill Duke. So that's like the Research Triangle. And we're competitors with rally sorta Right. I mean, they got the government center there. They get the more famous schools were more like the commercial side of North Carolina, business, commerce, banking. That's kind of our reputation here. Michael: And Danny, were you involved in as an investor in the real estate space before getting involved in the property management business? Danny: Yes, I was doing mortgages. I had a great run with the mortgage. So after big banks, I started my own mortgage company. So that was 2000 2001. And I had a great write up for the mortgage business. And yeah, I was buying properties. And I was selling them on an option given people option to buy them and I had for about 2025 properties in my name when the market crashed in 2008. I had all these houses sold, quote, unquote, they're sold to people that they realize they're upside down, everything dropped 20% across the board, they realize they're upside down. And so they call me up. Danny, you got a problem. Your house is the roof is leaking. I had a rough ride down. Hopefully I learned a few things. Yeah, like a lot of property management get started at that time, nobody could sell their house. So we have what are called accidental landlords or reluctant landlords, you know, they got relocated to Florida, they're upside down their house. So it was a great time to grow a property management company nobody could sell. Tom: That's so funny. You mentioned that one of the other property managers from Birmingham, the exact same story they were fixing, flipping and then accidental landlord really like enjoy the grind of it going back on the different you know, talking about Charlotte and some of the different areas. I'm looking at Google Maps right now of Charlotte. And I'd love for you to define some different areas as it relates to general strategy. So what areas within Charlotte you know, someone's looking at Google Maps would be more of a cash flow play, which one would be more appreciation which one would be more in the middle? Are there any kind of up and coming areas so? Unknown Speaker As far as cash flow I’d say the west side. And so and the reason is it's lower income, more industrial, the airport's out on the west side, if someone says they found a deal with it with a double digit cap rate in Charlotte, they're probably talking about the west side. There's some people making money on the west side, there's a little more drama. A little more, you know, higher evictions, lower income your copper pipes might be, might be more gone if it gets gets vacant. That's the west side. Tom: Yep, near the airport. Danny: And there's pockets of exceptions, of course. Tom: Do you guys manage a lot of properties in that area? Danny: Yes, our service areas within an hour Charlotte will manage any property, we do have a flat fee, minimum $90. So that ends up making us more expensive if the rents $500. And I'm charging $100 management that's like 20% management fee, that might be kind of expensive. Tom: Yeah, Danny: That's kind of how we need to do it to be profitable. Whereas if the rents 2000, I might be the cheapest property. Tom: Sure. Danny: That's just kind of how it works with the flat fee, we got a few different fee options. But to answer your question, yeah, I mean, I don't mind managing low income and class C, whatever you want to call it, we got to have a class A landlord, I'll throw that up. There's class C landlords, the classy landlord with a classy property is not going to work. Tom: Yeah, So how about is just kind of general within Charlotte? Is there much of a section eight footprint throughout the different areas Danny: There is there's like an eight year waiting list to get on organises a huge demand for it. Yeah, we do manage some Section A mostly the ones we inherited, we're not going after it, there's a few technicalities that make it hard to manage third party was section eight. This might be a little bit in the weeds. But let's let's just say I'm managing a property from Michael. And then there's an abatement. So they take away the rent. But I'm also managing a property for Tom. So income comes in for Tom, section eight thinks I screwed something up. So they're gonna withdraw money from my account to cover Michael's bill. But the money in my account was actually Tom's money. It's a nightmare. So I got to front the money to stay in compliance with the real estate commission. Anyway, that's just like a cork that makes it really hard to manage section eight. But if the investor understands that, and they put up a reserve, that's way around that there's an abatement, they grab the money, you just got to have that reserve. But there's pluses and minuses I don't you guys like section eight, you guys have section eight properties. Tom: I've done it. And it has been successful and haven't had any issues with it one way or the other. I'm not strategically like always looking for it or going against it. Danny: For sure, it's nice to get the check from US Treasury, you can't complain about that. If they're covering the whole amount, that helps a lot. You know, if they're making a partial payment, you know, like, let's say the tenants, you know, the tenants are on the hook for 150 bucks, and then section eights paying 850. So you get the 850 but you don't get the hundred and 50 do you get some hard decisions to make? Are you gonna spend $300 in eviction to collect 150. But it can be good, you still need a tenant screening. I mean, one one tip there is, you know, you don't have to do screening as far as rent collection income, that you're going to get the income, but meet them at their property where they're at right now. So you know, we got some things for you to sign where do you live and come over there, and then see how they're keeping up the place. That's the only thing that's gonna kill you and you got to do the repairs. I mean, if they're tearing the place up, you can say, well, that's tenant responsibility. Okay, well, the tenant doesn't fix it, the inspector comes and puts it into abatement. Anyway. So you better fix it like it or not fair or not, you better make an inspector happy. So anyway, there you go. Those are some of the pluses in mine. Yeah, Tom: Got it. So we talked about the west part of Charlotte What is going on? You know, South Charlotte East Charlotte North Charlotte, I'd love Yeah, I kind of thought that there's an area that's more kind of up and coming or it's more of an appreciation play. I'd love you to touch on the kind of the different pockets as you'd say Danny: South Charlotte is most expensive. So that would be like, you know, a blue chip stock. You know, it's gonna be solid investment, harder to cash flow. Just south, the Uptown there's Myers Park. I was just walking my kids there the other day lesson neighborhood there. You know, they'll buy a house for $850,000 tiny house built in the 60s, tear it down, build up a $2 million house so that's the most expensive area. Yeah, Meyers Park freedom Park area. That's beautiful. You see 100 year old oak trees, just beautiful neighborhood. It's pretty expensive all the way you keep going south south park Valentine pretty expensive, Tom: How about pineville or outside of that 485 kind of circle. Is that where it starts price starts dropping off a little bit as it remains. Danny: It does drop off but you got to go a long ways because yeah, you know, the neighborhood's past 45 South they're real popular to waxhaw weddington they got these deals where you know the minimum lot sizes one acre, now I'm gonna be able to build an apartment there. So it encourages expensive housing. You got to buy a lot that big. Tom: Got it. How about east of Charlotte? Danny: My favorite street is CENTRAL AVENUE driving out uptown Vietnamese restaurants, Mexican restaurants, a lot of diversity. A lot of older neighborhoods. Blue Collar neighborhoods. Tom: Is that like East away or is that still Charlotte as a city? Danny: That's Charlotte.Yeah, I'll throw out some numbers there. I think you get five 6% cap rate. And East Side. I think you're looking at two to three on the south side. Tom: Got it. Michael: And what about and how about a purchase price there on the east side? Danny: For a single family home? You're probably looking at 250,000 for a three bedroom, two bath that you could rent for 12, 1400 a month. Micaheal: Okay, great. Tom: And how about the last but not least North Charlotte? Danny: Yeah, just north of Charlotte is a little rough. Actually. That's where I live. That's also an industrial area. But this Arts District you hear about NoDa. North Davidson. That's a take off on Soho are trying to be like New York. So that's RT real trendy, real expensive and then and then go farther north. Those are expensive neighborhoods too. So you tell my Morrisville, Huntersville, Davidson area. You get the late crowd there. Lake Norman's real popular place to live. You got the peninsula club. You got Trump's got a golf course out there. A lot of the Charlotte Panthers Charlotte Hornets, professional athletes, they live on the peninsula on Lake Norman, that's a real popular area. Tom: Got it. And how about kind of the last general region question? Is there any areas you would say that, you know, you mentioned you guys manage homes up to an hour away? That's a little bit more in the deep cuts like maybe it's not in Charlotte proper, but man, this is kind of an up and coming area as an investor some place to look at to buying houses? Danny: I think so i think you know, when you're talking about that 1% rule, for example, for the most part of thing you got to go 45 to an hour away from Charlotte. Yep. So Kings Mountain just got approved for a casino. That's an interesting market. Yeah, about 45 minutes west of Charlotte, the neighbors are some on the north side. There's a proposal for light rail to go up to Davidson. Yeah, we had a really cool light rail that's, that's gone through South and North. So it goes from UNC Charlotte, North, down to 45, the outer circle on the south of Charlotte, and wow, that's done wonders for property values there. Yeah, there's just these a class a brand new apartments, they go on forever, on the light rail, that's really a lot of development. So if the same thing happens on the they call it the red line, they don't have the funding for it. So I don't know if it's gonna happen or not. But they got it on paper Tom That's good feedback around Kings Mountain, which is just east of RGB, just west of Gastonia, which is the city just along 85. Some other questions around owning properties in Charlotte, and the theme of investor friendly. So I'm gonna put this in a few different categories. So with investor friendly, let's first touch on rent control. Is there an aspect of rent control in Charlotte? Danny: No, I actually listened to your podcast with Matt Whittaker in Birmingham. That was interesting. And I agree with what he was saying as far as let's it's a progressive city and a conservative state, you know, for the most part pretty landlord friendly. I would say North Carolina, if you ever go to eviction court, there will be attorneys there from legal aid, representing the tenants. So that's something unique to Mecklenburg County, you better you better have dotted your i's and cross your T's because you're going to go head to head with an attorney. So it's landlord friendly, the state laws and then Mecklenburg County is probably the strictest as far as a tenant friendly. There's no control. Yeah, every once in a while an HOA will have a restriction on a percentage of rentals that's that may be more common like a condo uptown. It's not common at all on a subdivision but yeah, with an HOA anything can happen. Tom: Sure, you're reading my mind and I think you kind of answered it already. Is there is you know, outside of condos and townhouses Is there much of an HOA footprint in through development that's been done so in common to find properties that are an HOA as per single family? Danny Yeah, all the newer neighborhoods have a choice and they're the devil. So Michael I'm sure you love working with them as the management side of things get another nasty gram for garbage cans being left out or you know, what have you. Danny: Exactly, I did Hoa management a little bit. That's really hard job. Basically, you know, there's one person is who wants to be president. And that's usually a volunteer position and they just got a lot of time on their hand. So they don't work. They just sit at home and get things wrong. And that's the first as a property manager, that's the person you got to make happen. And they want a pitbull, you know, they want somebody to get just as angry as they are like, you know, they call me up Danny, the neighbor has their garbage cans out like you saying, and it's Tuesday and when you get really angry because it's Tuesday. Tom: there's a lot of things out there to be angry about but you know, garbage cans on the street that's not a good one that's not a good one to be angry about. Michael: That is not top of the list by any means. Danny: HOAs will always send the notice to the owner like property managers can be the buffer for most thing that notice will always go to they will always send it to the address on tax records. So then owner just need to forward those complaints to us and we'll take care of those get involved in that kind of thing. Michael: You brought up a really nice kind of segue transition, talking about tax records. What property taxes look like, in Charlotte. Danny: They're good compared to California, I guess. Michael: It's not hard to be good in that department. Tom: And that probably in Florida in Texas, I would assume because they're, you know, no income tax in Florida in Texas. So property taxes are super high. Go ahead. Danny Yeah, that's true. So it's about 1.2% of tax value. So if the tax rate is $100,000, you can expect to pay about 1200. dollars for property taxes. Michael: Okay. And this is a discussion I have with students all the time in the Roofstock academy about how to determine what the tax value is, versus replacement costs and insurance versus purchase price, because these are three numbers that are so often mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with one another. So if somebody buys a property in Charlotte, for 200,000, is the property tax basis likely to change? Or is there some regular frequency for an assessment that is independent of the sale price? Danny: There is an assessment? It's a good question. It's every I want to say seven years is not that often, I might be wrong, I might be five years and general the tax value is lower than the market value. And that's where you want it. You want your tax ID to be as low as possible. That's, that is a very common Miss misconception there. And then will it go up? Probably, probably, but it hasn't gone up that much. I mean, and then you can dispute it, you can send them an appraisal, it's Yeah, that's a little side hustle in itself, helping people dispute their tax values. Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Just to get a kind of flavor of the market. If someone buys a house, on the east side for 250,000, the rents are 1200 bucks. Mm hmm. ballpark, any idea what their assessed tax value might look like on that property? Danny: Less. So the market value is two to 50? I wouldn't be surprised if the tax value wasn't like 170. Michael: Okay, and then it'd be 1.2% of that. 170. Danny: Mm hmm. Michael: Okay, even if I bought it, you know, it got assessed last year at 170. I bought it this year at 250. That assessed value, that's the taxable value isn't going to change until they do a new assessment five or seven years down the road or what have you. Danny: That's correct. You're you purchasing the property, you won't change anything. Eventually, they'll do an assessment by zip code, bless their hearts are not gonna be appraised every property, they gotta take a stab at. conserve everything. I think they know that, you know, most people are gonna dispute it. It's also I even when they raise it, I think it still stays pretty conserved every once in a while. Have you surprised somewhere, but tax general is less significant less than market value? Michael: Okay, really good to know. Tom: One more tax related question is I know, sometimes when we are evaluating a property, you know, we'll use some global assumptions for an area say that, like 1%, or whatnot, and then we'll hit this little pocket in a neighborhood that has this school special assessment that for whatever reason, like this little jurisdiction is like, way more expensive. Is that common? Or have you seen that in Charlotte? Danny: No, Tom: No snakes in the grass, I guess, I don't know if like expensive property taxes stuff? Danny: If you do have a special assessment, it's gonna come from the HOA. And we had those like with the condo kind of thing where it was brutal back in 2010. Nobody was paying the mortgage, nobody's paying their HOA dues, and they need to put a new roof they need to raise 50 grand and everybody gets an assessment for $500 a month only pay for the roof. That's the only kind of special assessment I've heard of I haven't seen that come from city, a county here in Charlotte Michael: What do insurance costs look like in Charlotte? Danny Thanks for asking. Because I sell insurance, we could dig deep into that if you want, but dwelling is just cheap, 45 cents for $100 of coverage. So if it's $100,000 house, that'll be you know, 450 bucks in a liability policy and other 300 bucks get a million dollars for liability and put your property manager on as an additional insurance? are you guys doing that? I know, you guys got property managers. Michael: Every single one good. Danny: Are you doing that Tom? Tom: I need to do that. Danny: You absolutely need to do that. Otherwise, you're it's like sending a vendor out there without insurance. If there's a lawsuit, then there, everyone's gonna be looking at each other cross eyed who's got coverage here. And it could be it could be your insurance company doesn't want to cover the property manager, the property management insurance might cover it, but then sue your insurance company, it's so much better just get on the same page, because you are going to get sued together, I promise the landlord and the property manager the attorney is going to list everybody who's ever touched that property in the last five years. So you're gonna be sitting in the courtroom together, get on the same page, your put your property manager on it as an additional insured. That's my public service announcement. Tom: Love it. Michael: Danny, I was just having this conversation yesterday, actually with a fellow investor. And I dealt with the exact same thing. And they asked the question of why and I explained it probably less eloquently than you had, but I explained this to them. But I want to hear from you. Is it additional costs to that? Danny: No. And that's a good question. And it's confusing, because every once in a while someone call their insurance agent and put the property manager and they'll say, No, we don't do that. And that means you're talking to their captive agent who focuses on personal lines. It doesn't understand commercial lines. It's very, very common, but you should get a discount. You should call you Hey, I have a professional property manager here. So was a throat you know, American modern foremost, ASI, those are all insurance company, they will give you a discount, just check the box, I have a property manager, it will cost you less, there's less liability, less risk for the insurance company if they know that it's professionally managed. It's not an additional cost. It's less, it should be less Michael: Fantastic. Tom, you just got your money's worth. And then some out of this episode, man. I did I Tom: Love the tangents that some of these go on. Michael: Okay, cool. And I've got a timely question. Because I think again, another question I get and probably Tom gets as well from Academy members and just investors in general is COVID is still affecting the country. And so people are constantly is now a bad time or a good time to invest. Because there's a eviction moratorium and folks are losing their jobs. So they have a tough time paying rent. What are you seeing in terms of occupancy? physical and economic? As far as the property is your property management business? Danny: Yeah, so I didn't want prices to drop. I didn't want to go back to 2010. But I did think they were going to and I thought there's gonna be a huge opportunity, and I was wrong about that. Demand is stayed strong. Yeah, if you got a three bedroom, two bath within Charlotte 250. Under, it's gonna fly off the shelf demand is strong. The hedge funds haven't gone away lots of new york money, and they're happy with two 3% cap rate. You know, obviously, they're factoring in appreciation or whatever. They're affecting them for their numbers. But there's a lot of competition there's a lot of people don't want to buy in Charlotte, and they're paying cash. So now the market has not drop. Yeah, evictions, some of the lower income properties got hit harder. I think apartments got hit harder, you know, our average rent. It's 12, 1300. I think that's, yeah, that's I think that's been true across the country. Yeah, I'm in a lot of Facebook groups with property managers, we were all holding our breath. What's it like to manage property when you can evict somebody? Right, but you know, and there are just a few people taking advantage of it. I'll just say one from like, 2% to 4%. So but it's not that high. And I think everybody that cares about the credit, they understand that, you know, okay, I don't have to pay my rent. But that doesn't mean that the bill just goes away. You know, one day, they're gonna open up the courthouse and the bill still gonna be there. So, you know, people don't want that kind of uncertainty. For the most part, everybody who can pay is paying. But yeah, it's been really confusing. Actually, right, right now, nobody knows what do we all the eviction attorneys are in town are calling each other. We love to charge late fees. Tom: What it's going on? Danny: They don't know what's going on. Tom: So I'd like to touch on some points of interest in Charlotte. And these can be you know, Parks, museums. I know the Hornets which just learned about how their name was came to be. What are some of the major attractions and poles within Charlotte? Danny: Yeah, so Charlotte isn't typically a tourist town. You know, we got whitewater Center, which is really cool for like kayaking. It's like a artificial whitewater River. That's really cool. really unique. We got Carolyn's that's an amusement park. And that does bring in some regional kind of tourists. And we got some uptown fun place. There's some cool museums up there are museums. I love uptown. And we call it uptown By the way, because downtown is too negative, you know, we need to try to put a positive spin on this. And it is a little bit higher geographically, but that's there's no downtown and Charlotte's uptown. We're two hours from the mountains and three hours from the beach. So that's kind of fun. If you want to make a day trip to the beach, the mountains you can do that. As far as tourist kind of attractions that's more common that someone come in and do the beach or the mountains then then Charlotte Tom: Or the lake like Lake Norman, you're talking about earlier. Danny: Yeah, Lake norm is a blast. Tom: I have my last question. Here is kind of a fun thing and talking about different markets. Or you can get one meal. Danny, you can get one meal in Charlotte, where are you going? And what are you ordering? Danny: I'll go to Lang Van. It's a Vietnamese restaurant on the east side. And I'll get some pho soup Tom: I love it. Michael: Chicken beef or seafood. Danny: Beef. Michael: Good deal. Good deal. Tom, Like a good Pho? Tom: Oh, love Pha, can't get enough. Michael: Yeah. Danny, thank you so much for for hanging out with us and giving us such a great market insight. If folks have additional questions about home vault property management or about kind of Charlotte as a whole what's the best way for folks to get in touch with you? Danny Yeah, thanks so much, Danny@homevault.com and we just did merger we're still doing redoing our website. So you know our Charlotte website is still smartshieldpm.com. Smartshieldpm.com. Tom: Awesome. Well, I want to thank you so much, Danny for coming on and sharing with us and our listeners about the Charlotte market. Michael: This was great. Danny, thank you. Danny Big fan of what you guys are doing. Thanks so much. Tom: Awesome. Thank you. Michael: Thank you. Take care. Tom: Thank you, Danny for coming on. Love to learn about the market in Charlotte and all the other fun facts that you brought with you. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe, give us a rating all that good stuff really helps. And as always, happy investing.