Market Deep Dive: Indianapolis Indiana with Vincent Ash

In this episode Mark Woodling and Tom Schneider talk with Vincent Ash From the Indy Chamber about the Indianapolis Real Estate market, economic developments and what is happening in Indy in general.  --- Transcript   Mark: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the remote real estate investor. I'm Mark Woodling. I'm here with Tom Schneider. And we have Vincent Ash here with us today from Indianapolis in the Chamber of Commerce. So we really wanted to bring him on to give him a bit of a background on why investing in Indianapolis is something that really any investor should want to be interested in. So I think this is a good opportunity to not only hear from us, but really get one of the local experts who has an idea of what's going on in the market that we don't get to see or read about in your daily news.   Theme Song   Mark: So, before we jump in with Vince, I want to run over some numbers about Indianapolis. So, Indianapolis consists of a pretty broad range, the populations 876,000 people as of 2019. So, the greater MSA is actually 1.8 million. So Indy alone 876,000 versus the greater population 1.8 million people and the population is growing at 1.3%. So the median household income is $64,200 number of units is 867,000 single Family properties, of that 58% are owner occupied in 32% are renter occupied, leaving about 10% that are currently vacant. So as for home price and rent, existing home values have actually gone up 7.2%. The effective apartment rent growth is 3.6%. home value at entry level home is on average $163,900. The existing median home price is $227,000. And the median for rent as of December last year was $1,259. year over year rent growth is 4.7%. And single family gross yield on average is 9.6%. Home occupancy rate is 95.4%. And apartment occupancy rate is 94.7%.   Vincent, why don't you give us a little bit of information about who you are and your position with Indianapolis chamber.   Vincent: Absolutely. So my name is Vincent Ash. I am the director of Indianapolis economic development for the city and our county that we are also associated with I have been at the chamber for a little bit over two years now. I'm very much an Indy, local, Indy native, I moved to Indianapolis when I was five years old and pretty much been born and raised there. Prior to my role now at the chamber, I worked for Simon Property Group as a financial analyst. For those who are familiar with Simon, one of the biggest rates in the country and probably internationally as well. But I worked as financial analyst for them, no do a real estate transactions and then moved over to the chamber. My role as director of develop Indy is we basically are the economic development arm for the city of Indianapolis. So we work on business attraction, business expansion, real estate, real estate, redevelopment projects on a larger scale, looking at multifamily projects and things of that nature.   We also work very closely with the mayor's office in the city, on any economic development policies that they are looking to, you know, change or implement or modify. So overall, we have a pretty big scope. We do have a person, our team that focuses on business retention, we have an ombudsman that helps facilitate, you know, permitting, and regulatory and zoning questions. And then we have a project manager that focuses on retail. So we're touching a lot of different phases of economic economic development overall, it has been very successful, pretty respected throughout the city, not only as the economic development arm develop, indeed, but also as an indie chamber, having a lot of businesses that's associated with us as well. So that's overall what we do and kind of my role at the Indy chamber.   Mark: So if there's anything that comes up, let's say that there's new business opportunities in Indianapolis, you're probably the first person to hear about them and really understand, you know, new companies that are moving to the area, new jobs that are coming in. And frankly, you're kind of a salesperson that's trying to bring in those companies and really make Indianapolis look as attractive as possible.   Vincent: Absolutely. Yes, I'm not a salesman, but Trey, but I have to do it. For this job really just as like an attractive mechanism. I think the state does a good job of attracting people to Indiana. Fortunately enough for Indianapolis believe 60% of the GDP from the state is located in our in our central region, Indianapolis region. So overall, our state depends on our capital as well, Indianapolis, and as has been Bode very well for, you know, everything that we've got going on for us in the overall,   Mark: That's great, well, this is a perfect conversation to be having. So let me just get in a little bit about really what we're looking for, you know, we all want to understand kind of the macro level economics of what's going on in Indianapolis, but we don't need to go into like population trends and jobs, income, you know, cost of living particularly now, but we're looking for you really, some of those nuggets of information that make any out of state investor feel like there's a level of confidence that they can have not just in buying into the city, but eventually they're going to be buying into real estate and owning, you know, brick and mortar and renting out, you know, properties in the area.   So, you know, maybe you can give us a little bit of an idea about what we're not hearing in the news, you know, and what you're seeing in the local economy that somebody in, let's say, on the West Coast isn't good to hear about. So maybe give us some general economic highlights. And maybe we even start with a little bit of a COVID-19 impacts and what you're seeing, since that's such a relevant topic.   Vincent: So COVID-19 is affected everybody in the world and Indianapolis was was not any different for that. We did realize that, you know, it did affect a lot of our small businesses. And particularly, we look at our restaurants, our breweries that have been very successful here in Indianapolis, but those have been impacted the most Well, COVID is our as our restaurants or personal services. Are you looking at Barbara's beauticians? So overall, from a covid impact, our small businesses were hit the hardest, that we did some very innovative things at the chamber. As far as some traditional lending, as well as you know, help collaborate with a CDFIs to do paycheck protection programs that help keep these businesses afloat.   We also are doing like a reimbursement grant now, overall, to kind of help those small businesses and they've been very appreciative of those efforts. And it has honestly kept a lot of our businesses being able to stay open. Throughout the midst of this, I will say from a, from a broader scale, we're looking at some of our corporate, you know, attraction projects, or some of our expansions and growth that we've been able to see. I will say there was a pretty much a slowdown, I would say in April, I think as companies would kind of figure, trying to figure out what they will plan and planning on doing. But I kid you not. And I thought I was gonna be twiddling my thumbs throughout COVID. Because I was like, there's no, nobody's making a large capital investment, like going for it. There's no way I'm going to be busy, I was really just looking at ways that I could pivot and help out and other avenues going for so but we weren't, we didn't say very busy, stay very busy overall, when we looked at from our industry standpoint, Indianapolis is very diverse. And that was has helped us be pretty successful.   Mark: So Vincent, maybe give us a little bit of a background of what Indianapolis is really known for, you know, that the jobs in the area that you see are really growing are just some of the basic highlights of why people are moving to Indianapolis because we know it's been growing a ton. We've seen rent growth, personally from Roofstock’s point of view really increase and seeing a lot of investors moving to the area and wind to invest there. So yeah, give us a high level and kind of walk through what you see. Indianapolis as in your eyes.   Vincent: Yeah, absolutely. You know, kind of, as I was saying, from an industry standpoint, Indianapolis is very diverse. So that has really allowed us to be recession proof to an extent. When you look at 2009, we've been able to maintain a steady growth, when you look at you know, most of the rest belts, cities when manufacturing is left, you know, early 2000s and in the 90s a lot of those cities, you know, struggle, overall industry standpoint as being diverse, has been very beneficial.   So some of the major industries that we have here are looking at life sciences, pharmaceuticals, so Eli Lilly is a major anchor in our city. They employ about 440 thousand people just in our city alone. So you look at them and offer Eli Lilly have a lot of other pharmaceuticals or drug manufacturers that also have located here in Indianapolis and we kind of have sort of a life sciences of here. Not only that our tech scene has been exploding here lately. Look at Salesforce, and we are their second largest office globally outside of San Francisco and but we have a lot of different startups that are here indeed that are continually to grow. One of the one of those reasons why tech is is kind of booming here is from a cost standpoint, cost of living is very affordable here. But the main thing the main driver is workforce.   So we are within 70 mile radius, I believe we have close to 100 different it's a major college institutions. In particular, you know, some major ones Purdue I, Indiana University, all State University rolls home and Butler's located in Indianapolis, we have 40 institutions that's just located in Indy overall. So from a workforce and talent perspective, tech companies feel like they can attract a talent by locating here. So that has been very well received and our startups are continually to grow. High Alpha is a big venture group that's here indeed is very strategic about helping growth those hundred companies that they have been associated with Xylo being one of those startup companies that is growing, we just got an announcement that Kanos which is based out of Belfast and Ireland is going to grow here in Indianapolis and make any Annapolis their main hub.   So from a tech scene, we have been we have grown a lot. So when you look at life sciences, like a tech, we can look at our aerospace Rolls Royce and what they do from you know, manufacturing, engineering and aviation standpoint, they're headquartered here have about 44,000 people are that are in Indy. And then on top of that, logistics, we have the second world's largest FedEx, probably soon to be number one outside of Memphis because they are landlocked. So from a logistics standpoint, we are also growing. E-commerce is even more important now throughout the midst of COVID than it ever has been.   And we have seen major growth in pretty much all four of those sectors to even throughout the midst of this pandemic. And so it bodes well overall, from a diversity standpoint, the industries that we have here in Indy, allowing us to continue to be able to grow where our hospitality industry our convention industry is very in service industry is very huge here in Indianapolis, our convention center is we have Gen Con every year, you just looking at some of the announcements that we had recently from a sports standpoint, and they were supposed to have NBA All Star game in February, I don't foresee that happening with a pandemic going on. But you have NBA All Star game, we have Final Four, we have the big 10 Football Championship, the National Football Championship, all within, I think, a couple years of each other. And Andy has been very good at hosting big events, and our sporting industry has continued to be successful. So even though we see, you know, some downturns in our sports, in our hospitality, as being able to continue to grow in life scientists, tech logistics, aerospace has been has an other, you know, advanced manufacturing jobs proven us that we can, you know, stay resilient, and really recover and continue to grow throughout the midst of any type of downturn in economy.   Mark: Oh, that's important. No, that's really, really good to hear. I mean, we want to see every market thrive and come back. But we know you guys are set up for it with it right infrastructure. And, you know, I agree these low cost of living areas are just really what people need, you know, people leaving San Francisco and saying, I can have a quality, quality lifestyle, but for half the price. It's so great. Well tell me a little bit about maybe what is happening, and we don't see it today. Maybe there's some new opportunities or you know, what's trending maybe with a kind of new interest in the areas or anything that you give us some, some intel on that others quite don't know quite yet, but is considered public knowledge.   Vincent: I can say from a real estate development standpoint, we have been getting the attention of a lot of out of state developer. And so we have a lot of new pretty big projects lined up. One of those is a remodel of a former Coca Cola bility Hendrix Commercial Property Group, which is based out of Wisconsin is actually nearing completion of that project, which should be I believe, at the end of this year, basically took a Coca Cola bottling plant made it a mixed use, work, live play type of environment. There's a couple of tech companies that's going to be located there. They have all new independent restaurants that are new to Indy that will be there but they're no franchises, which is I think we're pretty big for is having a lot of local restaurants and local breweries very, a lot of very good ones. But this development alone really wanted to focus on the independent aspect, bringing new concepts in, they have an independent like film theater that's going in, that's going to be a part of heartland Film Festival.   And so they they have other retail components associated with it, but we were seeing a lot and we have we do have some other projects, you know, lined up from a you know, real estate related redevelopment standpoint, where companies and developers are coming in finding you know, properties, you know, like a former Coca Cola bottling plant and remodel it and refurbishing it. And we like I said, we have a few of those as well. We really kind of hit stream with a lot of multifamily developments, like I said, a lot of outside of the state developers are interested in, the good thing about indie is that we really haven't hit that significant, you know, density or high rise. But there's so much potential to do that. And developers are noticing that. So we got more high rises developments that's coming into our downtown core. Of course, that's where, you know, most people most take people, you know, want to locate and want to be in downtown. And the good thing about that is, is that they can live downtown, but also stay outside of downtown and still really have any type of lifestyle they want.   I would say, and I usually say this to any business or company that we have coming into Indianapolis, you can have any lifestyle you want, within a 30 minutes drive. And when I say 30 minutes drive, I mean 25 miles, yeah, I'm not, I'm not talking about, you know, six miles like that you get like in California, six miles will turn into a 45 minute 30 minute drive is going to be about 25 to 30 miles, you can and you'll have that any type of lifestyle you want. If you want to live downtown, you can live downtown, if you want to live in a suburban, you know, style, like a house, you can do that within 30 minutes drive up downtown, if you want to live on a farm, you could do that within 30 minutes drive downtown. So you have all these different mixes, and then you have these neighborhoods, of course, that surrounds our downtown area that are, you know, seeing significant investment, redevelopment of their homes, you know, appreciation values continue continually to increase as well.   So, we have a lot of cool pockets that's outside of downtown to a lot of good neighborhoods that have you know, the retail, the restaurants, the bars and things that people want to be around, that are growing, you know, significantly as well, and then even more pockets just continue to pop up. So it's been, it's been great to see, you know, it comes with its challenges as well, you know, making sure that we're not, you know, increasing poverty, we're giving people access, you know, to those quality jobs and stuff as well. So, we do focus on that, as well, making sure that you know, we don't leave, you know, some of our residents that are here behind, and we're helping grow them and scale them up as well. So, but, uh, but overall, it has been tremendous growth, from a real estate standpoint alone, you know, over the past, I would say three years, it's been pretty much boom, and then looking at some of the projects that we have lined up the next, you know, five to 10 years is going to look completely different.   So now is really the time to really look at Indianapolis, long heart and look to see ways to you know, really invest into the market as it still continues to go up. You know, I have colleagues that live in California as well. So and understanding how much you know, real estate costs in California compared to here, I'm like, you could live like a king, if you if you move to the Midwest. You know, for half a million dollars you can live like you'd be in a close to a mansion. So understanding that dynamic dynamic as well. I mean, that's, that's why you see a lot of real estate development that's happening here. So from a cost standpoint.   Tom: One of my favorite parts about these market spotlights is learning about the specifics of these little neighborhood pockets. So, you know, within talking about some of them, you mentioned the kind of core downtown is there like specific names of different boroughs? Like I'd love to, you know, for you to kind of touch on like this specific area. And like, you know, if you threw a dart on a dartboard like where it is relative to kind of like downtown, like, how'd you categorize that?   Vincent: So I'm going to be biased and talk about my neighborhood first. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So Speedway Indianapolis, for those who are not familiar is home to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, the biggest sporting venue in the world that you know, is home to the Indianapolis 500 which of course will be without fans this year, but it can hold up to 400 to 500,000 fans at one time, I think 100 runni, Indianapolis 500 have 500,000 people. So our community that we have here outside of race weekend. It's a great community. It's just west of downtown. It literally it takes me a 12 minute drive to get downtown to work. Because as I as I work downtown to and commute to me is pretty important. I don't have to worry about hopping on a highway just hit the streets and I'm there within 12 minutes.   So Speedway is a great community, great school district. A lot of new redevelopment projects are happening in Speedway. I'm about five years ago, they were very critical to them to reinvest into their main street which is just adjacent to the track and we got de Lara which is a Italian car manufacturer for IndyCar. So there we have Daredevil brewery that came in big was brewery and other brewery came in AJ Foyt who's a famous racecar driver has a winery that's located on the strip. And there's a lot of mixed use new mixed use development that's going in as well. So that corridor has been great. It has been received very well by the community.   But there's also a lot of other plans for some projects that are really going on now really, you know, to that point as well. So Speedway is a great community highlight fall Creek place which is literally just north of downtown. So if you look at a downtown map, we have a highway system and goes around downtown. So it's just north of the Interstate, if you're looking at a map so that area has been seen significant investment I mean, we're thinking you're talking about houses 10 years ago, that was around 100 hundred and $50,000 that are now worth 600 $700,000 so that area has been a very cool pocket and you can kind of see the growth this is happening right around the area is you know, expanding on that neighborhood and new redevelopments going in there but they have nice you know, cafes and eateries very neighborhood feel in that area Broad Ripple which is north near I will say obviously focus on College Avenue 65th street so a little bit further north north in our city, that area has always been very well received very well. A good neighborhood has a good main strip with a lot of different restaurants and bars.   So those those three are pretty significant Fountain Square area which is just south east the downtown is another area that has been you know, has been booming. If you watch hg TV and are familiar with the show good bones, they are really flipping and redevelopment homes in that in that area of Fountain Square and Bates Hendricks that area as well has you know some local music that areas more like entertainment has some smaller music venues for live concerts. More of a cultural center that I think than the rest of the other neighborhoods. But overall, I believe those four neighborhoods are probably the biggest and have seen the most growth but you are seeing a lot of other different pockets like you know popping up or whether that be you know, Riverside Park which is just northwest of downtown area has like three golf courses but they're you know, redoing a one of the golf courses in putting in an amphitheater that's gonna cost like $15 million, and really making the quality of life type of feel more neighborhood type of feel a couple breweries have went in along with close to there as well.   So we have a lot of different a little more pockets that have been starting to see a lot of more traction. But overall, those neighborhoods are kind of like the biggest, like probably the highlights in Indianapolis outside of our downtown and they have been seen significant increase in investment over the past few years.   Tom: And 30 minutes from everything. or excuse me, 23.   Vincent: Yeah. And I kid you not I when I say 30 minutes, you can hold me to that get anywhere in Indianapolis in about 30 minutes drive, whether I'm going to Southside want to get north or if I'm downtown and you know, want to get home to the suburbs I pretty much a 30 minute drive so close. Well, I hate being stuck in traffic.   Tom: Yeah, I think I've been an indie a couple of times and love it, man. Yeah. One of the things that really stood out to me is some of the investment in the downtown like there's this I think they call it a Riverwalk.   Vincent Yeah, our canal, right.   Tom: Yeah, yeah, it was it was this, like, how many miles is that? What did it look like? very new to this, it looks like a big investment for the government of building some some cool features. Go ahead.   Vincent: Absolutely. So our canal was actually built in the 90s, late 90s, early 2000s is when is when it was kind of built, it was kind of built very proactively without a big plan in place at the time, but it was like, hey, let's just build a canal where people can you know, run and have a good time on over the past. Like I said, probably about seven years, we've seen more mixed use development that's been popping up activating the canal front way retail, or there's a workout facility that's down there as well very, like a niche type of workout facility and it wasn't really a franchise. So you have more, you know, restaurants that's popping up to activate the canal is about three mile radius.   So if you like running is a good place to go running on as well. I think one of another like big initiative that we have here in Indy, is we do have a river that runs through Indianapolis is called the White River. And the master plan associated with that is pretty aspirational. And a lot of people are focused on it, and making that a reality and really utilizing the riverfront as a asset, which a lot of times I think in years and pass in history has almost looked at as as a boundary or barrier. And you look at that pretty much real estate redevelopment across the nation. You know, the highways, railroads, and you know, rivers are kind of looked at boundaries or barriers but really looking at it, utilizing it as an asset. And we've seen a significant development around it.   We will continue to do so. You know, cleaning it up, make sure allowing people to be able to even swim in it is as bad as A plan for the past 15 years, which is now coming to fruition where people can actually, you know, safely you know that you be in a water, what has been historically a big industrial city, you know, that has effects, but that has been cleaned up. We haven't seen more development around that as well. So since we don't have a lot of natural resources, like, you know, like Denver mountains in or California and things of that, you know, utilizing natural resources as assets that we do have, and being able to build around those.   Mark: you know, Tom invents it, we were actually in Indianapolis just last year, Roofstock did a property tour, where we read a 50 passenger bus drove through some of the major neighborhoods, like you're talking about Speedway, it just saw what the real estate looked like when and toured some of the properties. But what struck me as being real interesting was we drove through a few opportunities zones, and of course, you know, opportunity zones, that's really where there's a ton of investment because there's some tax breaks that investors can get. But what I always noticed was how many little coffee shops and little hipster spots are popping up alongside of those opportunity zones. And so you saw the live in you know, the communities were becoming more of a walkable area, you know, they had the the walkability to the coffee shop, maybe tell us a little bit about what you've seen and changes with opportunity zones, and how that's affected Indianapolis in general.   Vincent: Absolutely. So just a little background about opportunities zones, once that program was rolled out by the federal government, pretty much I believe 80% of census tracts within our city was could qualify for it. So of course, we submitted them all. So to state then, of course, the state hand picked different census tract to kind of focus on so once they did that, our downtown is actually a qualified census tract, the state basically had to determine and predict not only, you know, out of what can qualify for what we can use, but where do we predict investment will happen. And I think they did a very good job of, you know, predicting that. So opportunities I was we have seen a lot of investment, we have seen quite a few like multifamily developments utilize this and have, you know, went adjacent to where those coffee shops are when adjacent to you know, kind of where the eateries and breweries are already located. And it really just enhancing overall the feel and walkability to neighborhood.   You know, to that point, we have been a major, major focus on mass transit here in Indy, we do have bus systems, but now we have a bus rapid transit line that has dedicated lanes, so it's not getting stuck in traffic, and the station's more feel like a subway style nation that have just a bust up on a corner. So those are bus rapid transit line has been very well received. The current one that we do have goes south from our university of Indianapolis, it's just south of downtown all the way up to Bravo area, and it hits quite a few opportunity zones. The next couple that we have going in, goes alongside of those new opportunity zones as well, we have one as going east to west, from West Washington Street, all the way out through downtown to the airport.   And we also have one that is going from downtown, out to the northeast think fishers Lawrence Lawrence area as well. So the way those opportunities also set up has been great. And we really are now you know, building our mass transit infrastructure, you know, around those opportunities zones and kind of enhancing the, you know, walkability and you know, the feel of it, you know, you don't necessarily have to own a car to be able to get around and get where you need to go. So that's important to us as well. But yeah, the neighborhood fields has been becoming very popular, very well received overall. And, yeah, we have a ton of coffee shops, but a lot of good local ones, a lot of good local coffee shops and breweries. So everything has been very well received   Tom: both sides of it. I love it. You're reading my mind. I was going to ask about, you know, local transit and some of that, you know, just one last question on the opportunity zone, asking for a friend. So an opportunity zone, it's just a big tax advantage that the government gives or how would you define the scrape benefit that's catalyzing so much growth?   Vincent: It's a tax advantage that the federal government is able to add a capital gains tax that you're able, basically savings that you're able to benefit from so but the program was to peak investment into distressed areas. So that was the intent of the program was to spark investment in distressed areas. And like I said, it's been very well received. Our downtown is one You know, a lot of projects specifically as told us you know, they're focusing on that from a business attraction standpoint, a lot of companies have also said like, yeah, we want to be located in opportunity zone as well to take advantage of you know, the savings that they'll be able to benefit often from as well. So it's been very well received. A lot of people are using it here locally, I'm sure across the nation but the good thing about Indianapolis being you know midsize city cost of living is great question. Life is great. People really see it as opportunity. I hate to use that word again, but a big opportunity to utilize, you know, that program.   Mark: Yeah. And Tom, the way I look at it as, as an investor, you don't need to be the one necessarily taking advantage of those tax advantages. But you can sure piggyback off of everybody else's investments and really just see what's trending. And I think that's the, that's always the key, what's trending, where are people investing a lot of money into, and my eye is always, you know, see if you see a Starbucks, it's a good sign. If you see a coffee shop, it's a really good sign the breweries, yeah, that's a home run. Now, this is great. Vincent.   And so, you know, in in regards to some of those pocket markets, you know, we like to tell our viewers and, you know, our listeners, what are those markets that are really going to be kind of that next up and comer because a lot of the the properties sold on Roofstock are, are in, you know, more workforce housing type neighborhoods. So it may not be the the bars, breweries and coffee shops that we're looking at. But more of, you know, what are some of those areas that you could give our listeners some insight on that will be great investments, just because of maybe the new companies that are moving into those areas, or that significant investment that that may be going in based on opportunity zones?   Vincent: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's a good question. And as I mentioned, some before, like the Riverside Park, which is north east, I mean, northwest of just the downtown is pretty ripe for real estate development. be quite honest for you, there's been a lot of investment from a corporate level is a district called 16. Tech, which is really like a collaborative nature for rad for companies located for rad purposes and Life Sciences. This literally just south of where all these homes are located. There's a massive plan for you know, the part like I said, we're redoing it $50 million into the amphitheater, now the master plan over was like 100 and $50 million literally sits in between two universities.   Do you have any any you have IPY? There's located downtown, and you have Mary University, and that is also a growing University in Indianapolis as well. And yeah, this neighborhood, which actually I grew up in, so but I grew up in a neighborhood, and you see the growth that's happening pretty much on both sides of it. Residential really hasn't caught up really, at this point in time. But you have seen some people being able to come in here, and you know, taking advantage and investing into that community. So I would definitely mention that one. There's definitely neighborhoods, adjacent to fall Creek place that has been seeing a lot of growth, a fog replaces just north of downtown. So you look to, you know, the east of you know, that neighborhood, you can see significant growth as well. So, I think those are two neighborhoods, and really just focusing night, last night religious liberty, those two, but the good thing about those two is, those neighborhoods are very close to downtown.   So you could really just take a radius around downtown, probably, you know, 334 miles, even our Near East Side, as east of downtown has seen significant investment, significant growth as well. But from a real estate standpoint, you know, could still use some investment. But you see the commercial, you see, you know, you see, you see to the breweries, you see the companies, you see, you know, the cafes, but you know, from a single family home, there's a lot of, you know, distressed properties that could still, you know, be taken advantage of. So yeah, you could literally take a radius just downtown, probably a mile or two radius, you know, I would say two to three miles and just kind of focus in on that geographic, those geographic areas that, you know, probably are the next to pop that have started, have started seeing some significant growth. Some of those neighborhoods are, you know, a little bit more fluid, but, you know, the ones that chase into it are the ones, you know, that are getting there. So I those are definitely some of the ones that I would say, from a real estate investment standpoint, as you should probably focus on and move for, like here at NAB as a term of investment.   Mark: Oh, that's great. Well, I think my only last question would be, you know, in terms of the vision, let's call it the 10 year vision of where Indianapolis is planning on going, you paid a really good picture of what what's happened, how it's changed what's going on in the near future. But what do you think about in 10 years? How would you see Indianapolis growing?   Vincent: Continue to see a lot of growth? And like I said, I think our tech, I think our tech sector tech industry is gonna continue to grow as you look at the Midwest, you know, from a cost standpoint, and from a quality of life standpoint, I think we can compete with Chicago, but they just, you know, just have the the cool factor, I guess to it. So I think we compete with them. Both. From a cost standpoint, Indianapolis makes the most sense. So I think a lot of companies are starting to realize that especially even from Tech, the tech companies, but from 10 years from now, I think overall economy in from industries that's here and indeed will continue to grow. I think there's going to be a big shift from the big major superstar cities to some of the smaller midsize like a second tier cities.   I see us as one of those one of those cities, you know, we're being very proactive of making sure not only are we growing our economy overall, but as you mentioned, some of the, you know, the workforce housing that you know, that your investors probably typically invest in, also making sure that we're doing a good job of, you know, skilling up those residents, you know, we have been very innovative and some of our policies and looking at inclusive growth, and making sure that we're growing our middle class and making sure that we're giving people that are in poverty, access to quality jobs. So as a whole, you know, we can continue to grow, like I said, you know, there's economy as we grow and grow, if you look at it on paper, he's like, Oh, this is any office is doing great, like they're growing, you know, but, you know, there's been, you know, some cons to that, you know, you look at our poverty has grown a little bit as well. And so we have been very, you know, like I say, innovative and noticing that early working with Brookings Institute and other policy makers to make sure that we curb that and we're growing and an inclusive manner.   So not only are we continue to grow our economy, for higher skilled higher wage people, we also are growing middle school, middle class as well, who were decrease in poverty, like all of those are major, importantly, focused focus for us, I think, overall, a 10 years from now is going to be very well received, not only from an economy standpoint, and I think the growth that we're gonna be able to achieve, but also from a talent workforce, enable to attract diverse groups of people come to our city, which we think we've done a solid job on, but could be better, like most cities, probably you could say, I'm kind of a perfectionist, you know, some of those things, but But yeah, being able to attract very diverse groups of people, I think those are, you know, the neighborhoods, especially, when you look at cities and municipalities like this, people want to live around diverse groups of people. And so being able to, you know, focus on those being able to grow those will, will continue to help help our tech industry will continue to help, you know, our life sciences and RaD industry will will continue to help us attract, you know, you know, the college students that are already in our region, you know, VA Indianapolis and live here long term.   So I think from a growth standpoint, you know, Indianapolis 10 years from now is gonna look totally different from what it is today. I know you all visited last year, you can probably already seen like, Oh, yeah, this is pretty cool place, I think 10 years from now is going to be on a entirely different level. And, you know, probably looked at the way Nashville is looked at, or maybe looked at, even similar to Chicago and in some instances or Pittsburgh, I really think like, oh, I know, it's my job. And I could be a little bit biased. But I think the trajectory that we're going on some of the policies that we have in place and some of our vision, we're gonna be able to achieve those goals and Indianapolis is going to continue to be successful.   Tom: The last thing that I want to touch on is some of the points of interest and you'd mentioned one of them that Indiana Indianapolis Speedway, the Indy 500, the Indianapolis Colts, I think I remember and running on that little River Walk I think there was like a Hall of Fame. What other would you say would be like, you know, destination driver points of interests? Which was that? Did I see a Hall of Fame? Did I see a Hall of Fame?   Vincent: I think you’re talking about the NCAA Hall of Champions.   Tom: Hall of Champions Sorry, sorry.   Vincent: The NCAA is located here in Indianapolis. So their headquarters is here is on the canal wall and they have like a Hall of Champions like museum adjacent to it so that area because there's a couple of museums in that area as well that has been you know highlighted and that are are great to go to our children's museum is probably one of the best in the country has received multiple awards of being able to do that so…   Tom: Is it like dinosaurs or what's what's in the children's?..   Vincent: There is a huge dinosaur and outside of it, you may have drove by and seen it. Yeah, so there's a huge sometimes dinosaurs right outside of it but I think what we kind of preach not only you know are we gonna see are we a city where you come and have fun like but from a family aspect to like you know, I've been to other cities and I'm not going to knock any of them but I've been to other cities with like my family I'm like, just cool for like, you know, Millennials like this is great for younger people, younger professionals but like I can't see myself raising a family here and I think Indianapolis does a good job of making sure that is family oriented. As well as being able to go out have fun so I choose museum is great.   New Fields is our art museum. They have tons of great pro programming that go that goes on there year round. So like in the winter, they have like a winter lights thing. That's pretty cool. That's very well received family friendly, but also you can indulge and have a drink while you're walking around checking out you know, the winter lights. So New Fields is great army. Our museum is great. We have of course he said it. You mentioned coats. You have the Pacers that are here in Indianapolis. So our NBA You know, you know we've had our walls over a few years but you know, we always compete in from a basketball standpoint Indiana that's just basketball. You just enriched in basketball culture from so our Pacers are an attraction standpoint as well. Like I said, we NBA All Star supposed to be here February. I think they're just gonna probably shift the schedule back due to COVID for everything. Let me see we have a triple A baseball team. So not professionally, but triple A has the best attendance and all of minor league baseball.   Tom: That's that park is awesome. I remember it's like a sunken diamond right in downtown. That's Yeah.   Vincent: So it's pretty cool. So yeah, that area. We have, of course, our White River State Park, which is just along the river next to you know, our victory field where our baseball team plays that where they have a lot of concerts here as well. We have another outdoor music venue a little bit north of the city area called Noblesville. It has a host a lot of concerts. So of course, we have the track, trying to think of some other ones. Our airports been like rated top 10 in the country for the past, since it's been built as our airport is always very well received.   Tom: Yeah, big international…   Vincent: So I would say those are pretty much the biggest highlights. And then of course, we have our cultural districts, our trails we have, I think we have over 95 miles of trails throughout throughout the city. Connect connecting different districts and the ones that kind of mentioned mentioned before Fountain Square, Broad Ripple mass app is a pretty nice hub downtown, and Indiana Avenue as well. So we have a lot of different from a cultural standpoint, like work live play type of field. I definitely have to mention Eagle Creek is one of our biggest parks. It has a reservoir on it. So it has a lake bring a boat to some kayaking, as well as trails that you can highlight is bigger than Central Park in New York, that our biggest park that we have here in the city, nice restaurant, right that sits on the reservoir called Rick's boat yard. I highly recommend that literally just went there just Friday with my family.   So beautiful, like ambience, you know, feet. So we're setting as you know, over the reservoir. So we have a lot of different pockets and a lot of nature things that we kind of highlight guys, reservoirs, another one of them were from a neighborhood but they have restaurants and things over there as well. That's just north fish's area, which is in our region. It's not an Indianapolis proper, but it's a suburb has has exploded, you know, top golf course. Then you get to IKEA. That's a big win. So does IKEA is up there. Oh, so yeah, officials, district officials have been community has, you know, seen a lot of new development, they got some nice mixed use developments that's in that area as well. So I know it's not my job to advocate for other municipalities within our region. But that…   Tom: Being a good guy.   Vincent: Yeah. Advocate for our region.   Tom: That's awesome about IKEA going in. I mean, that's one of my strategies is just to follow where these big corporations that have the budget to identify these up and coming areas, like let them do the work. So my very last question is, and you've already used an example on that of that restaurant that's on the lake. That sounds really awesome that I definitely will will check out but if I'm going to go visit Indianapolis, and I have one meal to get where would you recommend me going to?   Vincent: Man, that's a tough one. I think I may know the answer. It's a steakhouse. But it's a steakhouse. So you got to go St. Elmo’s here one. So you definitely have to go there, I would say depends on your taste. I will say we was courting a tech company. They you know, they didn't want to really go high in you know, so you know, we took them to a barbecue joint, so, okay, so you know, you gotta I gotta know what you feel but i would i highly do highly recommend if you have one night that you have to go to St. Elmo’s   Mark: Where would you go the visit? I kind of threw that out at you but where would you go what's the what's your spot?   Vincent: Man as I say I like I like hole in the walls. So that's kind of that's kind of my go to so   Tom: You're good company. Where's our hole in the wall, we gotta blow them up!   Vincent: Go, you gotta do some barbecue at King Ribs is just west of Indianapolis at on 16th street like heading out to Speedway. I kill myself because I like come downtown workout more workout at Orange Theory and then like I got to drive up 16th Street and smell one one of our donut famous donut places Long's donuts they smell it as I'm driving by and then I gotta drive by King ribs know that too. So it's like I'm like shooting myself but…   Tom: You got a bunch of sweat points from orange theory   Vincent: I can indulge but yeah, that's that's what I would go to King Ribs. That's that's kind of what I would go to for me. We have no shortage of restaurants.   Tom: Love it.   Vincent: Well, one quick thing I'll throw out I saw the website downtown it's a great way to like really learn about you know the details of some of the the neighborhoods you explained. Somebody wanted to do a deep dive, but maybe Vincent, give us a little bit of maybe tell us where to go for the Indy chamber if people want to do a deep dive because we can provide a lot of highlights, but we'd love to, you know, have people go there, if you recommend going directly to the website?   Vincent Yes, I'm gonna give you a few websites that you could go out and check out downtown indy is a good one that highlights the downtown area, and things in restaurants in our downtown corner, is a their organization just promotes on tourist attraction just for Indianapolis. So our museums, our parks, different events, as well basically will show all the different concerts and things that we have going on, and different other beer festivals and things like that, that we have going on as well. So do317 is a good website as well. I will say you know, since COVID, we have had too many events. So like like the rest of the nation. So I'm very much looking forward to being out going out to a sporting event or things of that nature. But I will say those three websites are probably the best websites to utilize to look at happenings happen, indie,   Mark: Dnd what's indies indie chambers website that people can visit as well.   Vincent: So it'll be And if you want to, we have different tabs, we have a lot of different organizations like we advocate, legislative. So we have policy team, we have a small business department that does lending games, free small business, poaching, of economic development, focuses on attraction. So if you want to see highlights of different companies that are coming here, feel free to click on the economic development tab, check out either develop Indy, which is a nap which proper, which is my team, or nd Partnership, which is our regional team that advocates for our region.   Mark: Well, I'm a big fan of always visiting a city's economic development website that they get shows the major companies focused industries, quality, quality of life cost of living, and a ton of economic data a little bit high level. But again, it can really get into some specifics. So I always recommend that people go check that out. But hearing from you directly, I think is always the way to go. So appreciate your time today. Vincent, this was absolutely fantastic. And looking forward to maybe doing a catch up with these days soon and see what else is going on post COVID-19 once we get through all this.   Vincent: Yeah, I appreciate it, Tom and mark. And definitely we come to any next time, feel free to hit me up. And we can catch up. This has been a great change of pace, doing this, having this talk with you. And not so you know, in the grind of work. So this is good change of pace. I appreciate the invite.   Tom: Awesome. Get some barbecue. Awesome.   Vincent: Thanks, man.   Mark: Thanks, Vincent.   Mark: Just want to say a big thank you to Vince for participating and giving us some insight in a way that we really don't get access to on a daily basis. So this is definitely a privilege to have people like him on to really give us an idea of not only what's happening today, what's happened in the past, but what's going on in the future state of Indianapolis. So great, big thanks to Vince and looking forward to doing this again.   Tom: Happy investing

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