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Dream investment or real estate nightmare? On this episode, we have Bryan Bailey on to talk about his experience with the vacation rental investment strategy. We cover motives, returns, reserves, startup costs and everything else you need to consider to be successful with a vacation rental.   --- Transcript   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. On this episode we're talking about Vacation Rentals with Bryan Bailey. Bryan is a vacation rental veteran. And he's going to talk about how he started his portfolio, some of the costs all that good stuff. Alright, let's get into it.   Tom: Bryan Bailey, welcome to the remote real estate investor. Before we get into the topic today, why don't you give listeners a little bit about your background?   Bryan Yeah Tom thanks, I'm really happy to be here. Well, well, let's just stick to the real estate portion. I've had a very eclectic background. But you know, I got into real estate, like most people listening to podcasts reading, you know, the, all the books about how to get rich quick, you know, and it got enamored with that. But essentially, you know, out of college, I started in commercial real estate on the west coast. I loved it. I was doing structure finance, working on some big deals, and San Francisco and LA and Portland up and down the West Coast and absolutely loved it.   And, you know, I wasn't looking to get into SFR. But through a series of circumstances, yeah, I took a job at a small company that was buying single family homes at that time that that company was Waypoint homes. And in 2011, when I started there, we maybe had 300. In total, you were the first employee there, I believe, Tom and I was right after you. And you know, we grew that company to over 15,000 homes from 300. You know, it took the company public and eventually sold the firm. And as some of the listeners may know, the former waypoint is now part of invitation homes. So you know, that was a great run. And now I've been at roof stock for three years as a co head of investment services. And, you know, we're doing great things over here.   You know, I would just say, I feel like I've been a pioneer in the institutional, single family rental space, the past 10 years has been unbelievable, but when you see what's happening right now, with all the attention that the industry is getting all the institutions, even a lot of individual investors are getting more excited about the space, I think the next 10 years will be even better than the last.   Tom: And something that just kind of sticks out is you know, working at those companies are growing really quickly, you end up wearing a ton of different hats. And I thought one of the roles you had was so neat is whenever this company that was buying a bunch of houses would open a new market, Bryan would be the tip of the spear and basically, you know, work with some of the local pros and get the growth in these as we would open up Dallas as we would open up Atlanta, Bryan was the the road dog in opening up those new markets.   Bryan: So I was a road dog and the high school and college too. Just so you know.   Michael: I'm sure you've been called the worst things.   Bryan: And yeah, when we were running on empty is like, Yeah, I was a road dog. But yeah, to your point, Tom, I've worn many different hats and SFR like you have and it's just been awesome experience, you know, of a lifetime.   Really, you know, like you said, when we open up new markets, there really wasn't a playbook. There was no industry. So it wasn't a commodity business. Like it's starting to get now on these platforms. And so you just kind of have to figure it out. And I remember many times, as you were saying, whether it be you know, a Dallas or a phoenix or in Atlanta, you would go there and sit in a Starbucks with your first employee and just start mapping things out. So yeah, from there to heres is a lot of fun memories. We drink the entrepreneurial, gritty Kool Aid they have. Yeah, the stable is awesome.   Tom: So very awesome back ground professionally, but you also dabble as an investor as well, correct?   Bryan: I do. I do. You know, I have, you know, SFR my portfolio and today we'll get into it, but I do own vacation rental and thinking about adding to that portfolio. So have not only, you know, experience from you know, working in the industry, but like hands on personal experience in the space.   Tom: Awesome.   Michael: Awesome. Well, I'm super curious to learn how you ended up getting into that vacation rental. Tom, do you want to wait to talk about or should we jump right in?   Tom: Perfect segue, Michael, you're nailing the segue. Let's let's get into it. Go ahead.   Michael: Awesome. So I think a lot of people end up in Vacation Rentals as accidental landlords, you know, primary residence and move out of it and they could turn into a second vacation home. Was your approach similar? Or was it more targeted? And you thought, Okay, I'm gonna buy this as a vacation rental.   Bryan: I mean, I wish I could say something like super cool and awesome, where the audience would just say, like, Man, what a strategy but let me just back up for a second and I'll get into there but first thing that I had to do was get off the couch with my first rental property, just straight rental property. And I think like a lot of folks get into analysis paralysis. And you know, you read a bunch of podcasts and books and like looking for the right opportunity and you just, I couldn't just get off the couch. It literally took me like four or five years.   Once I made decision that I wanted to invest by the time I invested. I wish I had all that time back. So I want to say that first.   So, regarding the vacation rental, you know, as Tom, you alluded to, I had this job at waypoint homes where I was traveling the country and open up all these markets. And one of the places I love going to was Phoenix, like, you know, eight, nine o'clock at night, it's 90 degrees. Like, I just loved it. I mean, who doesn't like the desert, you know, and then   Tom: Spring training!   Bryan: Spring training, I mean, just fell in love with it. And you know, at the time I was a runner, I used to run a lot, yes, I just fell in love with it. And I not only what I go there for work, I would also, you know, vacation there, you know, a couple times a year ago for a week and hang out. And one year, some buddies of mine, we went on a golf trip, instead of getting hotels, we rented a house and you know, fairly nice house, but not like over the top. And I couldn't believe what we were paying for. And but then when you compare it to a hotel, it was cheaper than a hotel. And then that just, you know, the light bulb went off on like, I got to get in the game.   And so I bought a home there. And it's been tremendous. Now we'll go into different facets of it. And as you know, the podcast goes along, but it's it's been one of the better investments in my portfolio.   Michael: Did Did you have a conversation with any of the people you were sharing a house with about that idea? Or did you anybody, there's other people invest? Or did the light bulb click for them as well, were you like, off in a corner somewhere being like, holy crap, I just had this lightbulb moment.   Bryan: The guys I went with are in real estate as well. And they've dabbled, I didn't necessarily tell them at the time, like, Hey, we should all you know, go in together, or you should do it. And I should do it. It's just something that just kind of marinated a little bit. And I'd say within two or three months after that trip, you know, I hired a local agent that I'd already known from, you know, my business days. And I'd said, Hey, we need to start looking. And so you know, the trick is to find the right spot. So that's also took like another two or three months.   But now it wasn't long after that, that trip that I knew that that's what I wanted to do.   Michael: Right on. And so that first property you bought was was out there in Phoenix as well.   Bryan: Yes. Just outside of Phoenix and Scottsdale, Arizona.   Michael: Okay, and what year was this?   Bryan: This was in 2015.   Michael: Okay, so Bryan, I'm so curious to know if we can dig into the details a little bit more on this house. So I dabble in Vacation Rentals as well. But I really am curious to know, how are you managing it? And what kind of rents are you seeing on average on a monthly basis?   Byan: Yeah, that's a great question. So I bought it for 450,000. I'll tell your listeners, you know, even really need to understand the marketplace and some of the barriers to entry and limitations and potential issues that you might run into.   So the key in a place like Arizona, especially the valley and Phoenix, like there's HOAs is everywhere. And so there's a lot of limitations. I get short term rentals. A lot of Hoa is even today because of noise and traffic. They just don't want it in their neighborhood. So they're they're putting in riders in the HOA, I think that's why you would you would refer to it as that minimum stays 30 days, things like that.   So yeah, the first thing that we had to do was like, there would be a great property, but then it's like, okay, is it an HOA? We had to read the CCaRS in the HOA, that was the first thing that we went through. So the filtration…   Michael: And these are single family homes that have these HOAs.   Bryan: That's right, that's right, single family homes that have the HOA and so each market is going to be different, whether you're buying in the mountains, or on the beach, or what have you. But like, people go to go to the desert, they like, you know, they like to hang out the pool, they like to barbecue in the backyard, like, obviously plenty of space inside for recreation. So that was another thing. So it needed to have a pool, because I use it for personal use. We'll talk about that later, it needed to have a hot tub. You know, and so I had big time criteria, but when we finally got to it as 450,004 bedroom home, you can't get a couple of families in there easily.   Michael: Okay, so 450? And what kind of rents are you bringing in? And then we'll talk about how you went about managing it or setting up management?   Bryan: Yeah, so there's a lot of things I didn't realize before I bought a vacation rental just like in any investment. So obviously you got a huge startup cost at the furnish the whole thing. So I knew that we'd have to do some things to it, but you're basically furnishing a home that you're not living in. So if you can think about all the costs associated with that. So you know, 1000s and 1000s of dollars,   Tom: This is a pretty high price point, I would assume the rent just kind of based on the price, like you know, you need the furnishings to match, you know.   Bryan: You definitely do and I think the problem that a lot of novice investors get into is you'll read a blog or like, listen to a podcast and I'll tell you like, Okay, well, the tenant will should just have streaming service. So all you need to do is just maybe have a television or there's like a lot of dogma out there. And the way that I look at it is that maybe you'll catch me once and I'll stay in it. But once I realized that, like I can't watch you Sports Center at night or whatever that I want to do, like, I'm not coming back.   And so like, I really had to set up the house as if like, I wanted to be in there, you know, for me to be really comfortable. So there was a ton of startup costs, like I said, you know, the furniture that you're comfortable in sitting in, you know, like looking at on the walls, you need to have like a good coffee maker, you know, hotel type amenities like hair dryers, all that good China. And it just, it really just starts to add up.   And then the rents, I had to answer your question, Michael, so the rents throughout the year, I average about 5500 a month for 12 months,   Michael: Holy crap.   Bryan: But in this one in particular, during the high season, I'm at eight or 9000 a month, and then in you know, in the shoulder season, I get, you know, somewhere around three.   Michael: Dude, killing it. That's amazing.   Bryan: Well, it's all relative, right? So like, if you think of all the startup costs that I had, yeah, and then the expenses just go through the roof, right? So in the desert, it's hot, obviously. So water is more expensive. So water bills through the roof, your electric is through the roof, because like you're running, I mean, AC is on all day long. You got more pool maintenance, you know, you have more cleaning fees, and various things. So my expense ratio is over 50% pretty consistently on it.   And so the rents are high, but obviously the the expenses go up. And as we know, people can choose whether or not they want to vacation, they can't really choose whether or not they want a place to live. So that makes regular SFR you know, single family rental more predictable, whereas vacation rental? Yeah, you know, I have these great months, but you need to keep putting money into reserves for you know, the rainy days or the early days of COVID. like nobody stayed for like literally two or three months.   Tom: On the furniture Brian and the furnishing of the property. Was that all something you did yourself? Or did you have a professional manager or stager company help you do that? I did it myself with a designer friend of mine. So it's kind of one in the same. But you know, I had some ideas of what I wanted. Cuz really, if you're in the mountains and you have a homeless of vacation rental, you probably want to make it..   Tom: Critters or bears. You got to pick one.   Bryan: You got a woodland critters or bears? That's exactly it. I was trying to think of the term but that's perfect. So the desert, I was like…   Michael: Snakes or scorpions in the desert. Yeah, snakes or scorpions?   Bryan: Well, almost right? If so, you know, it's a desert theme. And then I got some, some artwork that really pops and pictures. So I got to stand out amongst everybody else on Airbnb, and VBR Oh, and booking.com, which I'm on all those sites, I'm on like 30 different sites. So I had to get somebody else with a better eye than myself. But I had an idea of what it should be like.   Tom: And I didn't know I never thought about those startup costs related to furniture because I use Airbnb pretty regularly and those type of sites and all filter like man, it's got to be like a 4.8 or above or like a really high rating. And you know, if you try to be cheap, and you know, go to the back of IKEA, just take whatever furniture they're throwing out, like for that just type of strategy you got to be make sure that stuff is high on the up and up.   Bryan: That's just it, Tom. And I think there's a lot of bad information out there. You know, obviously, I have my own experience, and I'm talking about it, but leading up to this call. It's like, Oh, well, I'll just kind of, you know, read some blogs and and listen to some podcasts just to see what people are getting in like this idea of skimping is not a good one. Like I said, like, you might be able to sneak one pass the goalie once but they're not going to come back to you. Now that I've been doing this almost six years, I have people that through property manager, I hear about it. It's like every year they come down and they stay for two weeks, you know, so I've got a handful of those repeat customers. And yeah.   Tom: A couple of questions on assumptions around financials. What do you see typically as like an occupancy percentage, like let's say you were to evaluate another home, and in that same area now, like what would you pencil in for occupancy? And then my second part of this is property management, like those type of fees. And that's probably a whole nother little subsection to talk about. But let's start with occupancy.   Bryan: I'm around 60%. And I feel that's pretty good. So I can only speak to the desert, but between, let's say, you know, Labor Day and the end of April, that's the majority of the time is full, I'd say my occupancy during that time is 80%. Right.   And then so in the summer when is 190 degrees out, not a whole lot of people want to vacation in the desert, but what you do get are people who maybe live across town and they just want to change the scenery. So I get a lot of that stuff in the summertime.   So the occupancy isn't as high maybe it's, you know, 30 40% in summertime, but it's a different crowd during the winter season. In the desert. You get a lot out of towners, you know everybody's heard the term snowbirds, so you got a lot of Canadians and people from Michigan coming down, paying premiums for real estate or to stay in your home and then during the summertime it's more locals.   And then from a management standpoint, it is quite expensive. So here's the other thing too. So everybody says the same thing, man, you're killing it on the rents. And it's like, well, my expenses are like through the roof and management, I pay 15%.   Tom: That's not too bad. I mean, that's a lot. It was a, you know, a year long tenant, but for what I've seen for rental, just because there's just a lot more overhead as a property manager for a rental unit 15%, it doesn't seem that bad at all. Did you look at many other rates of other managers? Or did you like find that the pm manager that you wanted right away? Or what was that process like?   Bryan: I looked at a couple of different property managers? Initially, I was like, well, I'll do it myself. Because as we, you know, we're talking earlier on the calls, like you and I have been doing this for years along with Michael, it's like, I probably know more than the next guy. Right? So there's a little bit of hubris there. After about 10 minutes, I knew that no way.   So I dated a couple property management firms, and I found the right one for me. And I can't stress that enough, like how a good property manager can like really change your life, you know, whether it's single family rental, or vacation rental, the group that I'm with, now, they're really good. They understand pricing dynamics, it's not like, okay, it's between these four months, we're going to charge this rate, you know, they're just, they're constantly looking at all the data, and keeping my average daily rate as high as possible, and my occupancy as high as possible.   And, you know, expenses with all property managers, there's going to be some areas where you might question but they're pretty good.   Tom: So circling back on the cost aspects, so you pay your property manager 15%. And there's no like, I guess, no leasing fee, because there isn't really much of a leasing. But is there any other type of fees that they're taking on, on top of the 15% of the gross amount that the person is paying just to kind of undead all the different costs?   Bryan: Obviously, there's a cleaning expenses. And so the property manager has the cleaning company, so I'm sure you know what they're charging me. It's not cost, right. So they're making a margin off of me. They're, they're not making a margin off of any of the maintenance, at least that I'm aware of, I'm sure, maybe there's some, you know, some deals going down behind my back. I'm not sure but just in any industry, but I would say the things that most people don't think about are like little things like welcome packages, right?   So we come stay somewhere, right? You want to have like some soap you want to have like, maybe you leave like a couple of cups of coffee for him to get started. You have like toilet paper and paper towels and things like that. And so I have a pretty nice welcome package that I've worked with my property manager on creating, and that's like 20 bucks a pop, you know, and so if you're, you know, let's say 60% occupied call 200 days a year for easy math. And the average day is four or five days, it's a lot of welcome packages. So there's just I mean, little things like that, that you wouldn't even think about in your costs.   I want to get back to the startup costs really quick, because like that goes into your basis of the home, right? And so like when you do your internal rate of return calculation, like you got to factor in, you know, 20,000 bucks, at least I did, and startup costs. And so it's like, you need a lot of excess rent over time to make up for that. So if I'm holding on to the property, I think it will continue to bear fruit average daily rates continue to go up. And obviously that service goes down. And you know, it'll more and more of that equity wedge I'll be able to take and higher cash flow. But I'd say it's performing as well as some of my best single family rentals. Even though I'm getting a lot of rent.   Tom: How would you compare the ongoing repairs and maintenance? I guess there's not really any term cost because it's like always a turn. How would you compare that to the multifamily and the SFR? in your portfolio?   Bryan: It's really, you know, it's a crapshoot, right. So you can't discriminate. Obviously, there's fair housing, but you know, you get the right tenant in the single family rental, you know, your long term rental, and you get a good one man, that is like gold. Yeah, it really is gold. And so you know, your expense ratio is really low on long term rental, when you're running to like, more and more people, you know, in these four and five day clips throughout the year, it's just inevitable that you're going to get a bunch of people coming down the party or, you know, a bunch of little kids that might take a crayon to the wall or whatever. So I just find that little nickel and dime maintenance has gone up. Yeah, I mean, your towels get stolen, you know, I mean, they do believe me, even in a vacation home, obviously, you want to have really nice bedding. And so there's a lot of turn there. So we're constantly buying you know, new bedding and furniture and things like that. And so you know, the China gets broken various things and then the pool is getting used more often. And so I have pool maintenance a two to three times a month whereas if if I was renting that out to somebody long term, it would be once a month. So is starts to add up.   Michael: But so on that kind of nickel and dime maintenance and repair costs, Brian and then also on the cleaning stuff, aren't you able to pass those expenses on to the renters in terms of cleaning fees or security deposit to cover those types of damages and repairs?   Bryan: Some of it, the way that I'm set up is, you know, I absorb those costs. So the cleaning fees and what have you, then I also I feel like I'm getting a little bit better rate. So okay, the only thing I passed through really is are things that are blatant months ago, I had somebody stay, and they broke a table. So you got to pay for the table. And so the property manager, you know, they have really robust language and the the tenant agreement, and they have a credit card on file and like high reserve, or deposit, if you will. And so I feel that I'm protected.   I mean, if they stole the house, we've collected the 1000 bucks, 1500 bucks before from people who have stayed and just treated that like,   Michael: Like a frat house?   Bryan: There you go.   Michael: And so Okay, good to know. I'm curious. On the expense side, I know you were talking about some of those nickel and diming expenses are going to creep up. But are there any expenses that you just don't have at all in traditional single family long term rental versus you do in short term rental, like, if we're going down line by line, then you've got insurance, you've got taxes, you've got property management, you got repair, maintenance, capex, all that kind of stuff. But are there any things that are unique to short term rentals exclusively?   Bryan: I would just say, you know, I alluded to it briefly in the beginning, like just little things like you know, amenity cost, that wouldn't be in normal operating costs, right. And, you know, taxes, insurance, maintenance, management, utilities, right? I mean, those are some of the basics for long term rental, but, you know, like cable TV, it's a couple 100 bucks a month, I pay for that, you know, whether somebody is there or not. So when the tenant is ready, they open the door, it's like, they can relax from their flight, turn on sports center, you know, do all that. So I don't leave anything to chance so that cable and internet are actually a pretty big expense, it's over 200 a month, that's $24/25500 a year. And like I said that, you know, these welcome packages, that one may not factor into their underwriting. I mean, that gets upwards to $1,000 a year, just little things like buying these, like, like I said, laundry detergent, you know, k cups and various things So, and then your utilities are getting used more. So, yep.   Tom: Now, super great points to other kind of categories of questions I want to get with before we jump off the call today. So COVID in personal use. So I would do COVID. First, I'd love to hear kind of the how the pandemic has affected your vacation rental portfolio. I mean, it seems kind of like it like a tale of two, two halves. I guess I'd love to hear that. How that has impacted your vacation rental portfolio.   Bryan: Well, I don't want to sound like I like I'm definitely concerned like the next person regarding COVID. But I'll tell you, it's been a tale of two cities, I guess. That's the right term. In the beginning, like, people got spooked. And I had a ton of cancellations. And this was like, right at the tail end of winter, if we can recall last year when you know, the shutdown started to happen. So, you know, once COVID hit and March spring training was canceled. And like nobody came down and stayed. And then, you know, the Barrett Jackson, you know, Auto Show, which is a big deal in Scottsdale. And so March and April and getting into May, like nobody stayed. So I was like, okay, the good thing is like a good real estate investor, I have a lot of reserves, I'm not over levered, you know, I keep my leverage low. And I have a lot of cash reserves.   So I was planning on 2020 being almost like, I wouldn't say goose egg, but just very minimal revenue coming in. And then all of a sudden, it was like, everybody kind of got COVID fatigue, if you will. It's like I don't want to be in my house anymore. I want to go somewhere else. So the flip side of that is once that kind of clicked in for folks, it's been unbelievable. Like, my wife and I, you know, would go to three times a year, and we're having a hard time finding like a window for us to like sneak in and use my own house in the desert.   It was booked up for six months straight up until like a few weeks ago. But again, it wasn't so much people from you know, like Michigan coming down, but it was like California. It's like, Man, I'm just tired of like being on zoom meetings all day in San Francisco, California. Like let's go do ever want to do this. Let's do it in the desert. So just tons of that over the last year and like I hope we all get back to normal soon. But like if this continues I foresee 2021 being the exact same my bookings are already like really solid so far for the next couple of months. I'm usually about 60 days out I can I can see how the calendar is lining up. And I yeah, it's been great. So I imagine more and more people continue to get out of Texas go to the desert or you know, what have you.   Tom: As that occupancy is just become so tight, you know, like no availabilities. You talking about with your property manager, they automatically adjusting the rent rate up? And if so like, I don't know, what can you quantify, like the percentage of like rent increase? And like how that's changed through it?   Bryan: Absolutely, absolutely. I would just say in general, right, because like, there's a lot of again, there's a lot two rules of thumb and lots of dogma in real estate investing. I think you just, you know, take the knowledge in, but then you just have to, like, think about your particular situation.   So I'll answer the question this way. If the Super Bowls in town, change your rate, yeah, charge more. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's like a no brainer. And so because we're seeing more and more occupancy, it's like, okay, let's see if we can't get more. And so I won't get into specific details, but my property manager and I, and we also use a third party, you know, maybe I'm cheating, because I have a lot of SFR experience. But you know, we're using a firm that could also help us with like pricing dynamics. And so we're trying to get that incremental dollar, you know, so it's like, okay, during spring training, there's nothing out there in Scottsdale, I'll talk to my property manager once a week. And they'll say, Hey, I think we can start bumping this up 23 bucks a day, and your occupancy won't change.   So we just kind of play with it that way. And I'm not saying that's for everybody, like, you know, your typical investor isn't going to be as involved as maybe I will, you know, I'm already paying 15%. Like, I want to be hands off, but this is my hobby, too. So it's like, I just kind of geek out on it. So that's what we do.   Michael: That's awesome. I got two totally unrelated questions. Bryan, before we let you go. The first one is, what kind of research platforms utilize to get an idea of you know, what type of occupancy or rates you could expect to get before you made your purchase. So if people are interested in investing in the short term rental market, you know, what resources are available to them? And then, once we talk about that, I'm curious to know how you've got this place insured? Because I want to geek out on that for just a hot minute.   Tom: Great question, Michael.   Bryan: Okay, those are great questions. There wasn't a whole lot of sophistication before I went in, it was more just kind of like gut feel. Like I said, it's just, you know, my personal experience was we were more than happy to pay the rate that we were paying for a long weekend. And then like, wow, this is pretty incredible. Now I did, I just started reading, there wasn't any like, particular search that I did, or data source that I look to, I just started doing a lot of reading.   And I would go on to Airbnb and vrbo and places like that. And just to see, like, other properties that I thought were going to be comparable to the one once that I was thinking of buying and just seeing how they leased up and what kind of rates that they were getting. And so I just kind of backed into it that way. And then as I was saying, you know, the property manager, you know, once I was before I bought the property, I was engaging them already. And they were giving me good ideas of, you know, what I could expect from a rent standpoint.   Michael: Okay. Awesome. Super, super simple and repeatable.   Bryan: Yeah, I think so. Okay.   Michael: And then now, shifting gears entirely insurance is this insured as a second home as a investment property as something in between? So I know that there are companies that underwrite specifically short term rentals. But talk to us a little bit about that.   Bryan: Initially, I purchased it as a vacation rental second home, so I was insured that way for a while. But, you know, because I'd show the rental income on my taxes, I seem to be a target for audits, like it's just everything, like, even though nobody's going to check my insurance. It's just everything is as it states. So if I'm calling, you know, a vacation rental, then I get vacation rental insurance, and it is a little bit higher. I mean, because I do have the pool, and there obviously, there's more people going in and out. So you know, higher liability and things like.   Michael: Sure. And so as you were talking to an insurance agent, is that synonymous with an investment property policy? Or is it tailored specifically to short term rentals and Vacation Rentals?   Bryan: It's pretty much like any other type of rental policy, like I said, like you're paying more of a premium for liability, because I mean, there's just more opportunities for people to have slip and fall or what have you. So that went up again, you know, because of certain amenities within the house. You know, I do have a pool, like I said, so that's a big red flag for a lot of insurers, like you know, just all the people coming in and out of there. So that jacked it up quite a bit too. And I would say from an insurance standpoint, on the whole versus like just a regular long term rental, vacation rental paying about 50% more than I would on a long term rental.   Michael: Okay.   Bryan: As much as I'd like to claim it as a long term rental, the real estate Gods wouldn't like it if I did.   Michael: You probably get smited for that one. Yeah, we've also got all of your personal property, you've now got to insure in that because you furnished it versus long term rental, unless you're furnishing that I mean, it's next to nothing minus the appliances, if you even own those.   Bryan: That's exactly right. So that's a really great point. So I've got a personal property, that's part of the policy as well. And then another thing just kind of outsides insurance but more from a liability standpoint, I have all of my real estate and LLC is not just one LLC. And so this one is in an LLC, for you, no extra protection.   Michael: Awesome.   Tom: Do you mess with home warranties within your vacation rentals?   Bryan: No, you know, I saw some sure that stuff, you know, obviously, and I think because of my own experience, maybe I'm in a different position than somebody else, but I know what to look for either be a roof, a water heater, and hv AC system appliances. And so you know, I just kind of make my own judgment, you know, is it worth 800 to 1000 bucks a year for a home warranty, or why go ahead and just like essentially self insure, when these things break, I'll just have to take care of so that's what I've chosen to do. But I mean, I don't blame anybody for wanting to do that. It's peace of mind. I have home warranties on other properties that I own. And it's makes me feel better at night.   Micheal: For anybody listening who's not familiar with self insuring what that is, is basically Brian keeping the would be paid premium. So in that case, 802,000 bucks a year, and just putting that in his pocket as a reserve for paying whatever bills come up. And after three years, you know, he's got three grand set aside, as opposed to paying those in premium so he could afford to make 3000 and repairs.   Bryan: That's right.   Tom: I like framing it that way. I'm gonna start framing it that way. Cuz I I'm in a similar camp, I self insure my utilities. So last question for you, Bryan.   Bryan: I got all the time for you guys, whenever you need.   Tom: All right, good, good, good. Using your rental property. So you see you men.., you alluded to it a little bit earlier. What does that look like?   Michael: And how can we come with you? When are we going?   Bryan: Yeah, that's the real question. Yeah, we're going for three weeks in April, if you want to join. Yeah, you know, I didn't coined the phrase, it's really, you know, lifestyle investing. I mean, as the world is changing, you know, it's like, I want to be in the desert, like I told you, even before I bought it, like I was going down there, you know, golf trips with my friends that I told you about. And then, you know, I would vacation there two or three times a year. So it's like, why not get the best of both worlds? Right.   And so not only this property, but I'm thinking more and more about vacation rental for my portfolio, because I also like going to the mountains. And I also like the beach, I'm originally from the Midwest, I do have long term rental properties in the Midwest, but why not just have a vacation rental in the Midwest as well.   So point being, it's like I go to these places every year as it is, is there a way I can have my cake and eat it too. And so from a utilization standpoint, the property in the desert, I mean, I want somebody else paying me rent, right? And so I don't go there when I know somebody else, oh, well book it, but there are times during the year where it's like, I'm just going to enjoy it.   So I probably spend in total a month in the desert. But again, that's during that those off times I told you, you know, maybe 60% occupancy so I just utilize the 40% of my advantage and like if pencils like so I basically don't pay for my vacation time in the desert and then like I said, I'm going to try to replicate this model in the mountains in the beach and what have you there's never enough SFR in your portfolio but like I want to diversify a little bit and like I think I understand vacation rental enough now from like, we're mentioning dislike all the hidden costs and the nuance of it and startup costs and some of these associated expenses. I can do it also.   Michael: So you're not lying awake at night in your vacation on being like Dang, what if I had gotten the last minute booking? I could be baking cement right now!   Bryan: No what normally happens, I lay out stay awake at night saying Dang, I should have bought Bitcoin at a buck.   Tom: Oh Man.   Michael: Another problem entirely.   Bryan: Yeah, you can have the vacation rental. I just wish you know, I should have taken my salary in Bitcoin.   Michael: Tom, you were gonna say something?   Tom: Just Yeah, I got distracted with Bitcoin. I totally lost.   I think you kind of answered this. So you're thinking you're probably your next investment continue along the lines of vacation rentals?   Bryan: Well, I was telling Michael before the show, I'm actually in contract now for on a long term rental in the Atlanta area, and I'm doing another real estate investment with a friend of mine. So I've got those two things going. But right after that, I think it's I'll buy one or two more vacation rooms.   Tom: Jump back in the beach or the pool.   Bryan: I tell you, Tom, I mean, I know you're a new father, right? It's like you're not going to Europe anytime soon. So you might as well get that place in the mountains or on the beach, you know, within a two to three hour drive.   Tom: Totally subsidize your vacation trip. That's love it.   Bryan: There you go.   Michael: Tom, you were talking about that. Up North right up in outside of Tahoe and we chatted about that.   Tom: I know but like home renovations kind of kick getting, slowing me down a little bit, but uh, yeah, not too not too distant future.   Michael: Right on, Bryan. Last question, I promise and then we'll let you out of here. How are short term rentals taxed? We understand you're not a tax professional or a CPA, but is there any difference versus long term rental, like short term capital gains or long term capital gains?   Bryan: I've talked to my accountant and it's basically it shows up on my schedule e on my taxes, you know, on my real estate owned and it's just like any other rental, it's like, here's the revenue here are the expenses here's the you know, the mortgage interest I paid and we'll write off what we can and you know, wish for the best.   Michael: Right on and are you finding that the depreciation on the purchase covers most of the income? Are you are you ended up paying any kind of tax?   Bryan: Yes, it does. But, you know, to each their own, my tax situation might be different than the next guy. But yes, to answer your question in general.   Michael: Right on, have you ever looked to do a cost segregation study?   Bryan: No. You know, if I ever get to that point, then I will have arrived.   Michael: Yeah, it's a promised land.   Michael: Awesome.   Tom: Awesome, Bryan. Well, thank you so much for coming on and letting us pick your brain on your vacation rentals and lifted up the rug a little bit on your portfolio, super enjoyable and educational.   Michael: We'll have to have you back on after that other property closes on the east coast.   Bryan: Anytime, guys. It's really a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks, Brian. Take care man.   Tom: Thanks again to Brian for jumping on the episode. And as always, if you liked the episode, please subscribe please like us. All that good stuff, give us a rating. And if you're interested in the coaching aspect, Brian is actually one of the coaches at Roofstock Academy so it's Vacation Rentals is something that you're interested. Check out Roofstock Academy. It is the all in one program on demand lectures, one on one coaching, group coaching all of that good stuff, so check out roofstockacademy.com happy investing