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In this episode, we have one of the SF Bay Area's top real estate agents, Brandon Kersis, talk to us about how to be smart with renovation projects and pricing strategies.   Brandon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wcrealtor/ Brandon's Website: www.thekersisteam.com --- Transcript   Tom: Greetings and welcome The Remote Real Estate Investor. On this episode we talk to a selling agent Brandon Kersis one of the leading agents up in Northern California in the East Bay. We talked to him about how to set price, his thoughts on ways to add value to the sale price and all that good stuff so all right, let's do it.     Welcome to the show, Brandon. Thanks for jumping on before we get into the the meat of the conversation. Let's give a little give a little introduction about yourself.   Brandon: Yeah, thanks for having me on and happy to be here. Um, my name is Brandon Kersis. I run a real estate team in East Bay, called the Kersis team and we sell mostly around the woman Creek lumber and Lafayette Alamo, Danville areas, do a lot of residential real estate. We got involved just created the team about four years ago growing since we were number one broker at our company this year, and I got involved with my family and happy to be on and share my expertise.   Tom: Well, we are a remote real estate investing podcast, you primarily do owner occupied stuff. Is that right?   Brandon: Definitely. Yeah, a lot of owner occupied stuff. But we do some duplexes and a little bit of multifamily but mostly single family residential owner occupied.   Tom: Awesome, awesome. I think the theme today, I think there is a lot of kind of just general principles of maximizing the value of the sale. And I think when we were talking about scheduling this, you had recently won an award for like most sales, like within the company. Is that right?   Brandon: Yeah, yeah. Top single broker at the company.   Tom: Yeah, awesome.   Michael: Yeah. Good for you. That's awesome.   Brandon: Thanks. Yeah, it's been a lot of hard work. I think what makes us a little different is that we do have a lot of experience getting properties prepped really well for market. So I can definitely speak on that today.   Michael: Well, Brandon, I'm super excited to talk to you today. selfishly, we always joke that half these podcast episodes are self serving. So I've got an investment property that I'm planning on selling to an owner occupant down in Southern California. So we'll definitely be picking your brain as we go through this.   Brandon: Sounds good.   Tom: Alright, so we have a couple of a rough agenda. And I think the general theme that you know, transcends between owner occupied as well as selling rental properties is how do we get the most value on the sale and the categories that we have identified ahead of times, and you know, like, all episodes is going to be conversational. So we'll probably go down some rabbit holes, but one of them is related to construction projects. So you know, upgrades in the kitchen, that marble, all that kind of good stuff, we're gonna talk a little bit about price setting strategy, we're gonna talk about marketing collateral relevant, not only as a remote investor, but just in these times of a pandemic of getting the most bang for your buck of perhaps virtual visits are not actually seeing the property.   So Brandon, I'll let you kick off the conversation. So thinking about maximizing the value in doing work on the property and preparing to sell it, I'd love to hear your sort of philosophy. Go ahead and ramble on. Let's hear it.   Brandon: Yeah, I mean, the whole thing about maximizing value, you know, when you prepare a salad, trying to get the ROI, right, you don't want to spend any money that you're not going to get back. And that's regional. And it also depends on what kind of house you have. I think the first step is understanding your local market and also understanding the house you have, right because if you have a very specific house to a specific buyer, your strategy is going to be a little bit different. If you have a house that all the buyers want, there's no objections, everyone's going to bid on it. So that's one thing to consider when prepping.   Basic realtor makeover that everybody does in the past has been, you know, paint stage make it look really like plain and kind of newish. But there's different strategies you can do, especially with investment properties. Sometimes people want a bite of equity when they come into the property. So you may want to actually present the property as a fixer. There's buyers out there, they're doing left and right swiping, and they want to see dirty carpets, they see brand new carpets, they're gonna do a left swipe right. So.   Tom: Yeah.   Michael: How do you know Brandon, if you have a, like you said he like a unique property or a property that everybody would want to bid on?   Brandon: Well, like one thing, like in particular in our areas that schools are really large driver of the market. So we take a look at that. And then what else do you want in a house schools are really important, flat grassy areas. So flat grassy backyard is going to bring you 13% more than a sloped yard on average. So that's a pretty big number when you have a median home price of like a million plus, you know, that's going to be a significant boost in value.   So if that's the case, and you're catering to a market that's really specifically driven for schools and lifestyle for the family. You want to make sure that you landscaped that space really well. And now it'd be you know, maybe a considerable investment That people in the past may not have considered as much. But with the COVID pandemic, and just the different dynamics at play with work from home, you may want to consider actually, you know, doing a larger investment in landscaping and yard like that, because that's really what you're selling, right? That's one of the big selling points of the property, good schools flat, grassy backyard, you'd want to try to embellish those positive features of the property.   Michael: Interesting.   Tom: And thinking about this and rentals. I mean, I think that's one of the main tailwinds of a single family rentals, where you get a little bit of premium rent as it relates to having that yard where you might not necessarily be getting that if you're buying an apartment complex.   Have you seen changes in the type of scope that you do in preparing to sell over the last several years over the last, I don't know, five or 10 years? Where before used to be like, Oh, we got to do the kitchen, we got to do XYZ? I mean, I love that strategy. You're talking about it being more targeted where, hey, maybe you want to leave some stuff undone some stones and turn just so it gets the buyers imagination? I mean, have you seen that evolve?   Brandon: It's an interesting question. You know, there is a lot of cheap money out there, right. So the time is really one of the tricky things. And if you have people working from home, doing some remodeling can be pretty tough. So you know, actually probably have seen it evolve more, it's having a property finished as much as possible when preparing for market.   But if you look at what sells houses, Kitchens and Baths, typically, right. So if you have, let's say, a property that you can kind of with photography, I just do a little bit of an update on the kitchen, maybe, let's say by doing a countertop span, you know, depending on the market, and 7000 bucks, changing a countertop and a kitchen and then painting the cabinets. And then we'll do something like staging around the bathrooms, if the bathrooms are dated to try to get an impact for the buyer that they kind of pass by the defects of the bathrooms, because they're focused on the kitchen beam. So it's trying to strategically pick a few features of the property that you can really have stand out. And again, embellish those features and try to get them to buy in to the good parts of the house.   Michael: Interesting.   Tom: Yeah, it's interesting about wanting more turnkey buyers are looking for because, you know, there's just an endless supply of television shows of people, you know, making it their own. I'm doing my own thing. And I think that I think maybe people have cycled through and tried to do home renovation and then realize it's really hard. And it takes a long time.   Brandon: A ton of buyers probably that are interested in this podcast, specifically do not want to pay for other people's updates, right? You have to be careful. That's like a pretty big, you know, like, I don't want to pay for somebody if they don't do it, right. So if you do make choices, you do want to do a good job.   Michael: So Brandon, but that brings me to a question I have for you. So something we talk about a lot in the Roofstock Academy is knowing where your highest and best buyer is going to be when you're prepping to sell a property. And so how do you coach your clients about either making upgrades or advertising it as a fixer upper? I would just imagine that somebody who's gonna buy a fixer upper is gonna be less particular than somebody who wants a turnkey product. They're gonna find every single zit and pimple on the property, right?   Brandon: Yes. So like with the fixer upper, you want to focus on negotiation, right? You gotta pick a fixer, you want to do some preparations around negotiation, because that's going to be a pretty, pretty big thing that you're going to be dealing with. So you can do some pre inspections and stuff like that and just be prepared with market knowledge to know where the price should be in depth. You don't want to double discount, right? You don't want to sure price the property low and give a discount for condition as well. That makes sense.   Michael: Okay. Okay. And so how do you coach people through whether to you know, make the repairs and marketed as a turnkey versus marketed as a fixer?   Brandon: That's a good question. Yeah. It depends on how close you are on the spectrum. Right. If you're pretty far away on the spectrum of being being a fixer, I think you go with it being a fixer. And you just mark it that way. Yeah, that's that's pretty much it. If it's got a lot of wood damage. That's a pretty big one. Wood damage can be pretty costly. So we stepped into a listing for the agent property management property in Walnut Creek, East Bay, and she fixed it out she put a nice floor she did a new kitchen. They didn't fix any of section one stuff. The framing was fungus damaged with moisture. And there was like a $40,000 pest report on the property. And then they'd been newly remodeled.   Michael: Ugh they put lipstick on a pig.   Brandon: That's like the antithesis right? You don't want to open up a can of worms. You know, that would have been a great property that just kind of leave as is and just market when it could be.   Michael: Handyman special or TLC?   Brandon: Yeah, people love that.   Tom: Totally unrelated, I had a good friend in college or Somali who his car was like dying like it was bad news like it was on its last couple miles and he's like, well, you know, I'm gonna give it a carwash, I going to enjoy the last few miles that I had with it, it's like the same thing where you have a house, it's falling apart, you just dump a bunch of paint on. I guess it's…   Michael: Put a bunch of money into it.   Tom: Yeah. brutal.   Brandon: Yeah. You don't even want to paint it? I don't think, I think you probably let it go, you know?   Tom: Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess that kind of ties into this next type of question on price setting.   So I'd love to hear your kind of philosophy and talking with a client about price setting and the ways that you're thinking about, you know, are you setting it low and opening it, a lot of bids are setting a little bit higher to raise the baseline?   Brandon: Yeah, I can't price setting it's super specific to the market and the property. And you can be way more comfortable. If you've got, you know, a good strategy pricing low if you don't have a lot of objections, but you really want to know where the market is. But if you're pricing aggressively to draw a bunch of people in, you want to know where your target is, you need to have a pretty good idea of how high above asking you can get. And a lot of that can be done locally. Like if you guys are investing, you know, in an area that you're not super familiar with, you might not be living there, just create really good relationships with the real estate agents in the area, make some friends, and just call them and talk to them. And if you'd be friends and agents, they will give you all their secrets, they will give you all their opportunities, they will tell you everything that's happening in the market.   So for instance, we have this upcoming property, we did a listing presentation last night, we recently broke the record in the area as a townhome, and it was an original condition. And all the comparables nearby were about 750 we were a fixer, we spent two weeks we spent $30,000, we just got 830. So the appraisal came in at 100 a day to come up with $30,000 cash is the way the appraisal contingency. And we set a record.   So we got this new listing that's completely remodeled, super modern, you know, German appliances, and just everything's really, really sweet. And I told them, you know, 819 list price is really good, because we'll be able to beat a 30 and possibly set a new record. And I was really confident that 819 she on the other hand is like oh 819 it's so much money, you know, and I brought her another net sheet at 860. I said I think the 860 site, I don't even want to see it. Don't even show it to me, he told me to throw it away. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe 860 is nuts. You know, that night, I go home, I talked to another agent friend who has same unit, not updated two doors down in contract, beating the 830.   So having access to that information, you guys can set prices low or even even move the price up from what you think might not be low, but still get that metric above asking, right. So if you're pricing low or giving the impression that you're pricing low, you're expecting above asking. And you can do stuff like that, like setting offer dates, right when you hit the market, just like coming on the market, just saying offer date in a week.   And they're like, oh, wow, that's really confident like you're already setting an offer daily. This is one of those desirable properties, no stuff like that. But if you do want to hit your number, like if you're in a luxury price point, or you like you've got a property that's like on a hillside and not everyone's gonna want it because the property you may want to price more accurate, right and just kind of have a longer market time and wait for that specific buyer.   Michael: Interesting.   Tom: So I'm going to paraphrase a little bit. So just on that last little piece that you're talking about that that was so interesting, in the listing where a lot of people are going to be interested, that's where you it's a little bit safer to try to go for that type of setting the price that's going to result in an over the top, it takes a certain type of person to love this type of property, that's where you would want to price it a little bit more accurately to what we think the price is going to be that right.   Brandon: Yeah, I agree. That's exactly right. So if you've got a specific buyer, a smaller buyer pool, yeah, you may want to price more accurately, but if you've got a really driving market, that and a property that adheres to a lot of buyers, you're safer and probably better off pricing on the lower side.   Michael: So okay, so now I'm going to bring in my personal situation and get your thoughts so yeah, I've got this it's a class a condo, great schools, great neighborhood, you know, relatively new was built like six, seven years ago. It's a very hot condo association people are selling very quickly.   So I'm wondering kind of the psychology behind buyers so I think my agent things sort of go for for 2424 something like that. Like let's say we price it at 400. We go low with it in hopes of getting it up if it ends up going at 420 or 424 are people going to be more frustrated that they saw it listed at 400 and have to come up 20 over asking to get it versus pricing it at 415, 417. And they've only got to go that, you know, three, four or $5,000 delta over asking.   Brandon: Yeah, it happens, buyers get frustrated. And they're like, where they missed or like, why did they price it so low?   Michael: Right, right, right, versus just starting it off in that midpoint. They only have to come a skosh above that to get to my number. So what are your thoughts on that? How do you price that like thinking about buyer psychology to.   Brandon: Yeah, well, the trick about the buyer psychology, there is also the market, what's what they're used to, if they're used to always adding another 20, it's not going to be a huge stretch. Sure. Also, it's kind of a little bit of a situation your agents gonna do, where the whole period the properties on the market, they're kind of thinking 400, and they're falling in love with that condo, right? So they're like, 400, it's kind of sweet, I can walk down and get Starbucks and all this stuff. And then you know, the agents like, yeah, 400, you know, like, come check it out, you like it, like the disclosures. And then day three, how's activity going, it's starting to pick up a little bit, right, so you're articulating that to the agent, that agents telling the buyer and it's like a slow movement up to the highest price.   So that the day before, you really don't want to scare people off, because you don't know how many offers are gonna come in, there can be not a nice feeling, you never know until you receive the offers. But one thing that you don't want to do is scare them off early, you want to bring them to the finish line. And then when you get there, that's the point where you can be really a little bit more forthcoming about how much activity there is. And that one buyer that really wants it is going to be able to take it a little bit higher than the next person.   I wouldn't worry too much about that delta of the buyer sentiment of being frustrated with paying that amount. Because in the long run, like it's great to own real estate that also has a little bit to do with the contingencies of the offer, too, and how safe you are when you first accept it. You can leave room, right like for the townhome that we sold where we got that record price for 830. Or this townhome we got a record price, we got a 30 they had no appraisal contingency, but they had an inspection contingency. So the appraisal came in at 800. They had to come up with 30,000 cash to cover but then they negotiated a little bit with us on things they'd probably normally wouldn't have. And we play ball with them. Because we knew Hey, you guys gave us great offer. So we gave them some cash back.   I mean, what else is selling? Right? Like what else is selling your buyer what else is on the market with the condo.   Michael: So there's one that just sold in the same complex at 415. Same floor plan similar finish about a month and a half ago. But there's like nothing on the market, things are just getting gobbled up down there.   Brandon: So that townhome I wanted to price it at 730. And my fly I sold a lot of properties if you wanted to go 770. And I'm glad we did.  I would probably hit it at 415 you'll probably go over because there's nothing right.   Michael: There's just no inventory.   Brandon: Yeah, yeah, you'll probably do well, and we just came out of this like winter season. This January is typically a mind that like there's no inventory and good properties can go really high over their market value that come on early.   Tom: This is a great segue on seasonality they didn't think about asking, you know, a lot of people asked like, Oh, you know, it's probably a little different from owner occupied versus rental. But I'd love to hear your input on seasonality of selling and buying if you know that I don't want to use the word like a better time or a worse time to do it. But I'd love just to kind of see some kind of general trends you've seen in your career in seasonality on the buy side and sell side.   Brandon: Yeah, typically there's a lot of seasonality around schools and activity with you know vacations and stuff like that. It's kind of been flipped on its head lately. You guys say that's accurate?   Michael: Yeah, because the rules of school are so different now.   Brandon: Yeah. It's been bizarre. showings on Mondays and Tuesdays. Typically it's you know, we can think you know, past like two or three years I've been feeling like January is a good month and I feel like we get a ton of traffic late January, but not as many people that want to pull the trigger. You know, obviously the spring markets always like you know, the area that everyone feels is the best so like beating out that market a little bit the strategy I think a lot of people take on in our market but I do feel like people are a little bit reticent. When you come on early, get a lot of foot traffic and stuff. Got a nice house but people aren't ready because they're waiting to see other stuff as well. So March is a great month, March and April.   Tom: Have you ever played play a fantasy football like auction style.   Michael: I never have no.   Tom: This happens every year. I think there probably is some similarities. So like you'll have like the best player come up and he always is a little bit of a discount because people are like holding on to their pennies because you only have so many dollars you can spend in this auction and then when you start getting to the third fourth and fifth best player they go for way over what you because people don't want to get left out. So do you think that as sort of like a parable to like the real estate market beginning of the year people a little more pinching their pennies, Not sure. Then the middle of the you know, the spring, the main, like purchasing time, you know, things are maybe a little bit inflated and selling for a little bit higher. Am I just making this up?   Brandon: No, I think that's it.   Michael: That's so good.   Brandon: Yeah, it seems accurate.   Tom: Christian McCaffrey, man get healthy man, you You hurt me this year, you hurt me this year.   Awesome. Let's transition to talk about how marketing has evolved. I think this has been a real boon to remote real estate investing just how good it's gotten for being able to capture, you know, condition, feel all that stuff without actually being in the property.   So go ahead, Brandon, I'll let you take the lead. And kind of just the way that is evolved some stuff that you guys like to do some things that you think are more effective, all that good stuff.   Brandon: Yeah, that's a great topic, you guys can always talk to the agents in the area that have, you know, the best marketing presentation and find out who their photographers are, and just get access to really good photography and tools. So you can do virtual showings and to making it look really good online. So the photography can make a huge difference. It really can when you capture enough light. And I can tell you, I can give you so many examples of palaces that were photographed with a poor photographer and a good photographer, and just how much more of an impact that makes. So don't ever, ever short money on photography. And that is an expense your agent should be paying if you have a real estate agent. So that's their expense. And don't let them short on that, because that's the first thing people see that's it makes a huge difference.   So a lot of people are doing that Twilight photos for single family homes, you can even do it on a multifamily unit. I mean, you could do a drone shot where they fly up a drone in the evening around five o'clock, and you have a lens that closes for a long time and captures all the light, and then the lens opens or the shutter, what we do is we take two photos, we take one with a really long shutter speed and then one regular and then we superimpose them on top of each other. So we have like a really cool evening shot with our ambience and the blue light from the sky comes in and all the lights in the house really shine. You can do that on a multifamily rental if you wanted to, you know, it's a few hundred bucks, but it can really stand out when you're looking at properties. And you see something like that. It seems like it's something special. Right? You know, you took a little bit more of an effort to spend on that.   But yeah, Matterports are a huge thing that 3d scans. That's pretty pretty new thing. That's pretty cool. If you don't have anything special there and you do the matterport you're kind of bored with it. You'd be like, Oh, this is all the hous is?   Tom: Yeah, you know, so you may not want to do, looking a little too much out of the rug, or…   Michael: Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point, though, to be thinking about.   Tom: Yeah, I can totally see seeing a photography bill of saying seeing like, you know, 100 or 50 or $200. And you're thinking yourself, oh, why would I spend that much I can do this on my phone for free. But it's like, Man, what a Pennywise pound foolish way to go go about it. I mean, great point on just the photography and just how critical that is and probably for marketing on the rental side as well. That's just something that it's totally worth spending an amount way more than you think would be worth. But is definitely is worth it.   Brandon: For sure. Yeah. I've got a friend that does a ton of rentals. He's like Airbnb King. Hmm, does really good photos. Always gets pretty tenants that…   Michael: Brandon, you mentioned something which I want to circle back on with regard to cost and who's paying for what cuz I think when people think really listen to this episode, or think about selling a home, they're thinking, Okay, I gotta pay my agent commission, maybe I have to pay to get the property ready or staged or painted. I mean, who typically pays for all that stuff to get a property prepped to sell?   Brandon: It depends. Everything's negotiable, right? I go through a lot of situations where it makes a lot of sense, just to not do you have any preparations. And if you know the market value, you can trade that property pretty easy. And then you can basically not have to go through the expense of having an agent because agents, you know, the fees can be costly, but that's a negotiated thing. Who pays for what all that stuff is, is negotiable, sometimes.   But marketing typically is the agents expense. And if you get a good agent, they're going to do a few things really well for you. They're going to negotiate really well. They're going to price really well. And they're going to market the property really well. And the thing about it, it's like you're only as good as your last deal. So like for me, it's really important that my clients choose specific options because it's my reputation on the line and I want the property to look a certain way so that I can get more business and have good results.   It's all results driven, you know, like staging, cover staging, oftentimes, you know in the price point that we're in, and photography and those two things for single family homes specifically, it's really, really important the ROI on those are huge. So that's the first ROI choice that you guys have when choosing an agent is basically pretty important. Right?   And then a few other cool things we do is like you know, light fixtures suggestions, really simple update to the house to make it hip and trendy is to switch out the light fixtures. It's usually inexpensive fix and then coordinating colors with the stager is important. So having the stager pick out contrast walls like what Tom has right behind him darker color, having a few of those that you know,   Michael: Tom, you're so hip and trendy man.   Tom: Moonshine!  I was trying to make a color like, like   Michael: Moon shadow.   Tom: Moon shadow. That's the word Yeah. It's like why is our dark side of the moon shadow?   And then Swiss coffee. You ever get a lot of Swiss coffee out there? Swiss coffee is a very popular white. Anyways, yes.   Brandon: But yeah, like, floor plans are cool to see.   Tom: Yeah, there's a couple of other insight maps is another company that does similar type work.   Brandon: Yeah. So the matterport is a 3d scan. And it takes quite a while. And then there's also this new thing called LIDAR, which is another laser scan that you can do 3d images of the yard. And that's kind of a new technology that's not quite out yet. You know much about it, but seems like it would be pretty cool.   Tom: Put on a virtual hat and run around the backyard. Incredible.   Brandon: Put an Oculus and your kids.   They have that now, too. They've got 3d matterport for Oculus.   Michael: Holy smokes.   Brandon: Yeah, you guys tried Oculus.   Michael: It's unbelievable.   Brandon: It's cool, man. Imagine walking through a house like that.   Tom: It made me kind of sick to my stomach. I mean, I'm I tried it like, what was it that we described like when you like turn to the side, it's like, smoother than your eyes are. Remember, it was a while ago, several years ago, but it gave me a little bit of a headache doing one of their like tours. But yeah, now that stuff is very cool. Very, very cool.   Michael: Pretty unbelievable.   Brandon: Yeah, I was in Big Sky a year ago…   Tom: What was that?   Brandon: Nothing. I was just gonna ramble on about Oculus.   Tom: I want to hear some more Oculus stuff, which is that we're a bunch of friends are in big sky. And we did it for the first time. I just like had like the best workout in my life, just shooting people. And   Michael: I also was quite sweaty. After I got done playing. I was like, wow, Holy smokes.   Yeah. All right. Brandon, I have a final question for you before we let you out of here. And that's just what can folks do, either on the buying side or on the selling side to work better with their agents.   Brandon: So communication in the beginning, basically, setting expectations is important. And just communicating in a way that's effective for both people, trusting your agents really important. Like it really helps us to have confidence from our clients that they're telling us, hey, you know, it's fast to trust you, we know that you care about us, we need the best results, you know, and that gives you a little bit of a boost of confidence, but you want to do a good, good job for them. You know, so just having a really good relationship where you trust them, and you pick the right agent that's going to make good choices for you. And then communicating your needs.   Michael: In that same vein, how does someone know if an agent's doing a good job for them? Or they're just another kind of notch on the belt so to speak?   Brandon: Yeah, that's a great question. I'm communicating every day, you know, just being there giving reports emailing what's happening, knowing what's happening, knowing what else is going on in the market. So they should know if the house were active nearby. And if it went pending, they should know what the buyer sentiment is. They should be able to speak to each buyer that's been through the property, what they liked what they didn't like about the house. That's really important, because you can't just put a sign up and you know, just have people follow you and they want to buy it.   Michael: Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay, so great. Great tips.   Tom: Yeah, one thing I'm gonna throw at you at the end here, Brandon, this is the some quickfire questions. Okay, so these are just general kind of philosophical You know, one word answer don't have to overthink it. We do this with with some guests on related to investing in real estate. So you're ready for some quickfire questions.   Brandon: Sounds good. Yeah.   Tom: As ready as you can be.   All right. consolidation or diversification?   Brandon: Consolidation.   Tom: High property taxes, or high income taxes?   There's no necessarily right answers to do it. You don't need to overthink it.   Beandon: Yeah, that's a tough one. Probably property taxes.   Tom: Okay. High rent growth or Low vacancy?   Brandon: Low vacancy.   Tom: I like it just a couple more for you throwing you on the spot here. Cash Flow or appreciation?   Brandon: Appreciation.   Tom: Debt or equity? You guys hate that one though.   Michael: No, no, it's all good. There's no right or wrong.   Tom:  Totally. We talked to Academy members. It's like, you know, a huge part is like what's your investment thesis? You know, more cash flow more appreciation more balance. So yeah, no appreciation is great.   Brandon: A lot of my friends are cashflow investors yeah. Michael: Because you can't get it in the Bay Area.   Brandon: It's really thin. And it's like, you know, you lose tenants. If you could go south.   Michael: Yeah, really quickly.   Tom: Last couple of questions. Single Family or multifamily?   Brandon: I’d say multi multi family on a wide scope.   Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Well, more cash flow there. Local or remote investing?   Brandon: Local.   Tom: Turnkey or massive project?   Brandon: Man as an investor just for making money massive project.   Tom: Sure. All right, non -real estate related, Midnight Oil or early bird worm.   Brandon: Early Bird worm.   Tom: Text message or email?   Brandon: Text.   Tom: And the final question. Olive oil or butter?   Brandon: Oh, great question. Butter!   Tom: All right,   Michael: Good answer.   Tom: Yeah. Good answer. You made it to the quick fire as well. Brandon, thank you so much for coming on. And joining us today anyways, if one of the people wanted to reach out you know, questions on selling and all that good stuff.   Brandon: Yeah. If you want to see us on Instagram at WCrealtor, and you can see a lot of our stuff on there. And we've got a website www.thekersisteam.com, feel free to reach out and give us a shout.   Tom: Awesome. Thanks again for joining us.   Brandon: Thanks so much for having me guys, that was a lot of fun.   Tom: Thanks to everybody for listening. We hope you found this episode entertaining, enjoyable, educational, all of that good stuff. And if you did, if you could subscribe and like our podcasts wherever you listen to your podcasts, give us a rating and as always happy investing.   Michael:   Happy investing.