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In this episode Tom and Emil share their experience with the Refis an HELOCs they are currently processing.  ---  Transcripts   Michael: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by my co hosts,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Emil: and Emil Shour.   Michael: And today we're gonna be talking about loans, how to get them trials and tribulations upon getting them and things you can do to expedite the process along the way. So let's jump into it.   Alright guys, so Tom, I'm curious now for a quick update from you, how is your insurance restructuring coming along?   Tom: So I had the call with Nick, who is a an academy member and also an insurance broker expert. And I am we had a great call, and I'm sending him my current policies right now. hopefully get that done today. And then he's going to come back with game planning some options. So it's making progress, albeit not at work speed, but I'm ahead of where I was when we recorded our last episode on my 2020 failings. So making progress.   Michael: Okay, good to hear. I will follow up with you on the next episode and see where you're at next.   Tom: Love this. Thanks. Thanks for being my accountability buddy, Michael,   Michael: That's what I do. That's what I do. Is he looking at every single one of your policies, or just only a handful?   Tom: He's looking at a handful of them. He's looking at like six of them. So well, I don't know. We'll take a look. I'll keep you updated.   Michael: All right, guys, I know that we are all in the midst of some form of loan product. And so we're going to be talking about some of the different products that are out there some of different products that we've utilized in the past, but a meal, I want to start with you since I know that you're in the midst of a cash out refinance, which is something that a lot of investors utilize along the way. So can you walk us back to why you wanted to get this? What was the kind of point and then what the results have been thus far, and what kind of ping us some questions along the way?   Tom: And you're a good person to go first, because you held us up and recording because you had some stuff to do while we were waiting on the line for you related to your refi.   Michael: So we're gonna blast you at the hotseat.   Emil: Yeah, that's right, this is very pertinent, because they basically just asked me for my firstborn child so we can get into it. Alright, so this is the second property ever bought property in Indianapolis, we bought it for 115,000, back in 2017. And right now, with interest rates being so low and inventory being so low and prices going up a bunch because people are owner occupants are driving prices up, because everyone wants to get in a home. Now, the value of this property grew, I thought to about 140,000, or 150,000. So my plan was I could probably cash out our original investment down payment, closing costs, all that stuff was around 25 K.   And I figured if values have risen to 140, 150K, I can probably pull out around 20,000 bucks, and it won't change my payment every month all that much. Because when I got the property, it was a 4.6% rate. And now at the refi, it's going to be a 3.1. So point and a half drop will offset a lot of what would be, you know, if I cashed out at the same rate, I'd be paying a lot more each month. But with that one and a half percent rate drop, my cash flow doesn't really change, my monthly payment goes up like 15 bucks or something 10, 15 bucks, and I get to pull this cash out.   So we got the appraisal back last week. And to our great surprise, usually the painful surprise, this was a good surprise, it appraised for 157,000. So we're actually gonna be able to pull out our entire original investment of 25,000 bucks. So we'll be in this property for $0. And our monthly payment i think is going to go up like 25, 30 bucks in total.   Tom: You know what, I think that is Emil. I think that's cool. You wanna know why I think it's cool?   Emil: Why?   Tom: BRRRRRRR BRRRR   It's actually not like a traditional verb I cut he basically like effectively kind of did a burger, just being able to take all your cash out with the refinances. So it's not a full BRRRR. It's like a BRRR. Like you just Yeah, well, you probably didn't do a big renovation. Emil: I didn't know renovation, I was texting Michael, we were chatting on slack. And I coined a new phrase for this. It's called burger. And so what that stands for big GRP. So one is by the first key is get lucky and have the Fed drop rates. The second key is get more luck with low inventory and high demand. So prices go up. Yeah, the R is refi. And then the P is this probably won't repeat, we probably won't be able to do this lucky sequence of events because we just got lucky we didn't do anything we didn't we didn't force value and force appreciation we didn’t do anything special. It's just a nice sequence of events that sometimes when you're in the game, and the environment changes, you can take advantage of that. That's all happened here.   Tom: BGRP. So that's sticky. I like that.   Emil: Very, very sticky. It doesn't quite roll off the tongue.   Michael: Rolls off the tongue so nicely. Fluid, you know, BGRP. So I have to ask though, I mean, I mean, it's we always joke on the show that you're a pessimistic person and I'm an optimist. Do you think that you made your own luck? Or do you really think this was just dumb luck? You threw darts at a board ended up in Indianapolis ended up with a, you know a great property? Or do you want to give yourself a little bit of credit and say, yeah, you know what I did some research, I did some legwork. This was a very calculated decision,   Emil: I would say more luck than anything else, I'm not going to pretend like I saw this coming. And that's just me being really honest, I think you can often delude yourself into saying, Oh, I did all this research and blah, blah, blah. And sometimes, you know, maybe when Detroit or Cleveland in the past, you know, in 2008, when they had meteoric falls, I'm sure there were tons of people who were looking in those markets and saying, I bet Detroit or Cleveland could be on pace for great things, and then unpredictable things happen. I know, we all like to give ourselves a lot of credit and stuff. But I think a lot of stuff comes down to luck in my eyes.   Tom: Yeah, I think that's true. But you also like need to be at the table to like to be lucky like that. Exactly. Like, if you're not if you're not gonna..   Emil: You need to be in the game playing in the game.   Tom: That's right. So circling back on the finance aspect of this, this is something that I think about when I refinance, especially when I refinance pretty quickly from the original origination of the loan. So your example, so you said you bought in 2019, or 2018? Emil: 2017   Tom: So you've made a bunch of loan payments, or a better way to put it as your renter has helped you make a bunch of loan payments. And with it being an amortized loan, the majority of those loan payments aren't cutting into the principal at all. It's just you're just basically, you know, paying that interest piece, I love to hear your guys's thoughts like in refinancing so quickly, it's like, you know, you don't bring the total loan basis down that much, just because those initial payments, so much of it is interest heavy, do you think that makes it like a better time to refinance versus just because you no longer into your mortgage, the more you're going to be able to cut into that hang down that principle total. And I'm just digging a little bit in the conversation and thinking about, I mean, I think we all like the concept of refinancing. But to play devil's advocate, so when you when you're refinancing, you're basically going back to square one, if you're doing another 30 year amortized loan, where you're only paying off interest for you know, are primarily interest for the first several years.   So I know that Michael probably has some a good rebuttal where he's gonna say, I disagree with you, Thomas, I'm happy to hear it. But just to be devil's advocate, you know, with these loans and the way that they're amortize those initial payments, you're just paying principal. And once you get over that extreme, you're just paying interest. And once you get over that, then you're actually cutting into the principal and by refinancing so quickly, you're never really cutting into the principal. So when you take out your mortgage for 30 year amortized, your first several years, so since 2017, your mortgage payments have primarily been going to just paying off interests. And over time of that 30 year loan, more of those payments are going to go towards the actual principles, but by refinancing so early on, you're never really cutting into the actual principal. And you know, to be honest, I refinanced stuff pretty quickly, either there's a pop in appreciation, or I was able to get it a little bit of a discount or whatnot. But my argument for this discussion is, are we throwing money just by only paying these loan interests before refinancing right away and not really cutting into the principal at all? Does that make sense?   Emil: Yeah, no, I get your question to me, because my primary objective right now is to grow my portfolio. I'm not concerned with paying off anything I don't, I don't want to be free and clear on anything. For me right now to be able to pull out $25,000, right, only have my payment changed by 30 bucks a month and be able to go use that to buy something that I don't know, adds 100 $200 cash flow, whatever it is, it's a no brainer in terms of and then I get to have more properties in which I could potentially do what I'm doing right now with right like instead of one property that gets the appreciating you do a cash out refi. You take it and make it two properties, right, and you snowball a lot of that initial equity.   Tom: Got it. So just a paraphrase. Even though the principal isn't getting cut down, because we've refinanced really early on in the mortgage. It's more valuable at this point of your life to just Hey, I want to scale this as quickly as possible, less concerned about getting as much of that loan paid down. Emil: It's like his net worth or cashflow, more important I get is that kind of like?   Tom: Sure, yeah. Yeah.   Emil: For me, I'd rather take that equity and create more cash flow rather than pay down and have things free and clear, grow my net worth faster, things like that.   Tom: I dig it.   Michael: I tend to agree. I don't have a big looming rebuttal for you, Tom. It's not something that I look at super closely. And in fact, actually, I have several mortgages that are interest only because I'm doing some rehab stuff. And so that's like the epitome of what you're talking about is you're literally just paying for the right to have access to the money, you're not changing the principal balance whatsoever. And so doing a quick refinance, when you will see where you have potentially see a dramatic drop in the amount of interest that you pay, I think it'd be a really good thing to do.   And I know a lot of people that are in your like 20 or 25 or 30 year mortgage, and they're thinking about refinancing, and I think that the Question you're posing is much more applicable in that situation where they are so close to getting their home free and clear. Versus do they want to reset the clock, but take advantage of a better rate, there's a lot of things to consider there. And so at that point, you're just so aggressively beating down the principal versus someone in yours, you know, one through 5, 6, 7 even is it making a massive, massive dent on their principal, but something that I personally like to do, and I know, I've chatted with Emil about it in the past is on higher interest rate properties, or on primary residences, I'll actually make extra principal payments, either 50 bucks a month, or 100 bucks a month, something that I would, I'll never notice, thankfully, but that seems over time to make a pretty significant impact that over time, even in that short run, after one to three years of paying a loan down can have a pretty significant impact on the principal. And so make that refi even more exciting, so to speak.   Tom: I like it good little little sidetrack of thinking about the amortization aspect of these interests and timing on a refinance. And it makes a ton where you're super late, you know, your year 20 into a 30 year when so much of your payments is going towards beating down the principal, anyways, just wanted to sidetrack us a little bit on that aspect, cuz it's something to think about, you know, on how much of your payment is going towards principal versus interest.   Michael: Absolutely. And I think if anybody hasn't looked at an amortization table, or amortization schedule for their particular loans, they definitely should, because it's really eye opening, seeing how much is going to principal and how much is going towards interest. I think people are often really pissed when they like, if you add up the total amount of interest paid over the life of the loan, it ends up being like, I don't know, 170% of the original loan amount to begin with, and people stand, it's like, yeah, that's how loans work. So it's really important to really go into it eyes wide open, understand what you're paying, and for how long.   Tom: Yeah, and just to kind of beat over the head of the topic of the amortization. Basically, when you have a 30 year loan, your payments in the beginning of that loan, it's broken up between that payment, some of it is going towards paying down the principal, and some of it is going down paying towards interest. And with amortized loan in the beginning, the early years of paying that loan, the majority of your payment is just going towards the interest and not the principal. So just a concept to understand.   Michael: Okay, so I just pulled up an amortization table that I built for the Roofstock Academy, we have that as part of our academy playbook. And so for example, $192,000 mortgage at four and a quarter percent interest amortized over 30 years, the payment on that is $944.52. And so the payment is going to be consistent month over month for the entire life of the loan. But what changes Tom, like you're mentioning is the amount that goes to principal and the amount that goes towards interest. So in that first month, you make your payment, you have a principal payment amount of $264.52. And interest is $680, for an ending loan balance of 191,735 and 48 cents.   So we can see that the interest portion of the payment totally eclipses the principal payment. So year over a year, so in year one, we will have made a total payment of $11,334.30. And that stays consistent again, throughout the life of the loan, because your monthly payment never changes, the yearly principal that we've paid down on this particular mortgage is $3,236.86. And the amount of interest we've paid is $8,097.43. So again, a massive massive portion going to interest less so going to principal, versus as we get down into year five, again, we've still made a total payment of 11,334, because our monthly payment hasn't changed. But now we've paid 30 $835 in principle and only 7500 in interest. So as we slide down the time continuum, that scale shifts heavier weighted towards the principal side and lesser so on the interest side.   Tom: So it's kind of mind boggling to learn, like the way that amortization work because I always thought like, okay, you make a payment of of your mortgage, and it's it's always split evenly between your principal and your interest. But nope. Yeah, it changes over time.   Michael: Economics is crazy. It's definitely in favor of lenders, that's for sure.   Tom: Yeah. Let's get back to Emil. Some of the friction that you have been dealing with in your refinancing, what are some some takeaways, some gentle frictions and thoughts on, managing anything you could done differently? Go ahead.   Emil: Yeah. So I joked earlier that they're asking for our firstborn. And what I mean by that is they just asked for so many documents, right? And it's funny every time I refi or get a new loan, it seems like it's never standard. It's always something a little different. And if you're doing a cash out refi versus just buying the property that's a little different. The biggest tip I have I would say is like keep a folder with as many of these documents as you can write, like, all your prior tax returns, all of your leases, all of your evidence of insurance on the property, and then anything that comes up that a new lender needs throw that in the same folder.   So for example, they asked me for the certification of our trust, because we hold these properties in our trust, the lender is asking for like that first page, that certification of the trust is what it's called, it's I've never been asked that before. And so I had to go, like find that and scan it or whatever. But now I'm going to keep it in that folder for any time someone in the future asked about that. And I have like, one central place that I can keep these documents.   There's certain things like every lender is going to ask you for two months of statements for all of your checking and savings accounts, and your pay stubs. So those are things you're probably not going to regularly update every month. So those are probably something new you go get when you submit an application or whatever. But there's a lot of things that are standard that you can just keep in a folder, and it'll just make it so much easier to collect and wrangle all these files and documents you need to send the lender.   Michael: What else? Do you have anything Top of Mind of other documents that people should expect to have on hand that you've been asked for? In this particular refi?   Tom: Like, is that a question you're asking when you have an answer in the back of your head of some additional ones?   Michael: No, no, no, I'm just curious.   Tom: I just get I sometimes ask questions that I like have an answer for   Michael: To set myself up to spike it?   Tom: Yeah, just set up yourself.   Michael: The Michael Jordan of podcasting questions,   Tom: but Michael Albaum.   Emil: This one was a little different in that this is the only property I have with an HOA. So that was a new one where I had to go back and dig up like proof of Hoa. There's also this funny side story of I hadn't paid my Hoa in a year and a half. If I had $1. For every time a bill got sent to the property I own and not not to me, man…   Michael: You have $5   Emil: I'd have $5. But I paid way more in fines. Let me tell you. So   Tom: That's miserable.   Emil: And there's nothing you can do. It's not like guys, you had the wrong, this is recorded. Why wasn't it changed? The buck stops with you. So you got to take care of these things you can't expect? I don't   Michael: So are you saying that as a result of this? refi? You found out you hadn't paid your Hoa in a year and a half?   Emil: Yes, sir.   Michael: How was it being paid before you've owned this property for you know, almost four years.   Emil: What happened was I've changed property managers in that time. And my last property manager was terrible. Sometimes you just forget that things need to be transferred or whatever. The thing is, is that there's so many bills you forget when one you're like, wait, have I paid my Hoa bill? You know, there's like Hoas…   Tom: How did you manage? So did you end up just having the property manager reach out to the HOA? Are you doing that on your own? Or how did you know?   Emil: I got a letter from an attorney saying there's a lien on my property until I pay my Hoa. So in the middle of a refi. No less. So that was fun.   Tom: Oooogh   Michael: It's so interesting how attorneys can find your proper mailing address immediately, but.   Emil: Exactly. Yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah. I at least told them what happened. And then they removed like their attorneys fee, which was like 100 bucks, which was at least nice. But still, it's   Michael: So you have a year and a half worth of HOA dues. Plus late fees, I'm sure.   Emil: Yeah, exactly. More or less don’t buy properties with an Hoa is just a general.   Michael: You know, Counter point. I don't think we can make that blanket statement.   Emil: I know I just personally now dealing with an HOA if there's two properties you're looking at, and one doesn't have an HOA. The non Hoa is our choice.   Michael: Yeah! HOAs 99% of the time a real pain in the butt to deal with.   Emil: I know, look at this property is appreciated. It's got an HOA it's obviously been good. Like, that could be part of why it's appreciated in this area, right? Like the the community takes care of their properties and whatever. So   Michael: Totally.     Tom: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.   Emil: Yeah, totally. I'm just bitter right now. I'm a little salty right now, because I got fine.   Tom: Michael is asking what other documents are asking for. And I think that is emblematic of the document request process where instead of just asking for one time of the documents you need, it's like an ongoing run of like, every two or three days asking for a different document. It's like, Hey, you know, I'm excited to get you this information that you need that we both are excited about closing this loan, just send me an email, just just send me what you need. And I will respond back, I get it that sometimes, you know, something may come up where it will end up asking for another document.   But I feel like most the times, it's just a very slow trickle of like, okay, send me your, you know, IRA or 401k or bank account or checking, okay, now send me your insurance on these other properties. Okay, now, it's like, let's just do let's do one request. Let's do it one time, but I mean, whatever, not a big deal. The other kind of grinds my gears in this process, the website of the loan application. So a lot of these companies, they have one website for the loan application, and then one for actually managing the loan. So you set up this email account this for whatever, uploading documents or whatever, and then the loan closes, and you go back to that same website to do anything and it's like now That's just like a special purpose website for this company even though it's the same company as managing the loan they make you go to a different website let's let's get this all integrated Come on Come on everybody like we're originating loans and managing the loans let's do it in one spot.   So anyways that's the other grinds my gears you know, basically one storefront for originating so and I think most websites are like this you go to I'm not gonna say specific companies but even though it's the same company, originating it the other website for actually managing it, let's, let's get this all integrated.   Emil: You know, the first point you mentioned Doc's, like, all throughout the process, it's like you get, they ask you for a ton in the beginning. And then it's like your closing week, and they ask you for a ton. It's like, Ah, there's never anything in the middle. It's always in the beginning. And always at the end. It's so funny. It's always the same. It always works like that   Tom: In a marketing language. It's a drip campaign of asking.   Emil: This is like, all up front, and then all on the back.   Michael: Tidal wave.   Emil: Yeah, exactly.   Michael: I was gonna say real quick anecdote for kind of two stories relating to document request ridiculousness. So I bought my primary like two and a half years ago, and I got approved for the loan without going through the underwriting process and like, Oh, hey, we need this k one, which for anyone who doesn't know k one, it is basically a membership as part of an LLC form that you report on your tax return so the LLC performs a tax return and then gives all its members a K one so I bought some stock like $100 worth of stock in his company several years ago. And for whatever reason this company issues k one   Tom: Bitcoin, it's doing pretty well now it's, uh, you know,   Michael: I wish I wish, but so like, I don't know, on the K one, it shows like your membership ownership, percentage, and mine was like point 00000074 to have whatever like $100 for the stock. I got, like a $2 dividend. And like, Oh, we need this k one. Are you kidding me? Like I got a paper copy of it. And I sent it to my CPA years ago, because it was from two years ago, tax return. And now I don't like I don't have it, like, Oh, well, we need it's like, Are you kidding me? So my CPA, who's a partner at the firm is like, this is not materially important. This is like a $2 distribution. Like, I don't understand what the problem is. And they're like, Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. All right.   And then, literally, like you saying, a meal a week before we close they go, we need a letter from your employer saying that you can work remote. I was like, I'm literally on my way out the door to getting married in Costa Rica. You can go figure out how to get that because you're not going to get it in the next two days. When we settle too close, like, Oh, we need it. We need it. Like maybe I'll just come down to your office. I'm like, dude, I work for a multinational company, headquartered, like on the east coast. Like, that's just that's not happening. Sorry. So you should have asked for, like, months ago when you were doing this and like, okay, we'll get it figured out like, great. Do that. See ya.   It's like, unbelievable. So I think the lesson takeaway for me is like, push back, like they don't have the right to just delay and delay and delay like, we have some power as borrowers. And just yeah, I think just don't take flak from people be like, Hey, this is your fault. You need to go figure it out. Now. Don't make your lack of planning my problem.   Emil: That's right. Yeah. Especially when they ask you for that downpayment. You just say, No, I'm good.   Michael: I'll pass. I'm good.   Emil: You guys got this?   Michael: All right, Tom, I want to shift over and ask you a couple of questions. So I know that you're in the process of doing a HELOC. But you know, any final thoughts before I take you out of Limelight?   Emil: No, no, I'm done. Take my mic away.   Michael: Okay. So Tom, you're in the process of getting what's called a HELOC. And for anyone who's not familiar, maybe you could walk us through what that is and why you decided to utilize that as opposed to a Neil's cash out refinance.   Tom: Yes. So HELOC is a home equity line of credit. And we've talked about on the show a little bit. And basically what it is, is it is a line of credit that you're getting. That is the difference between your loan amount and the up to a certain percentage of the value of the property. So for just a really simple example, let's say your house is worth $100,000 and you have a $50,000 loan, you can get a HELOC. Most of them go up to 80%. I've seen up to 90% that would be worth in this example of a $100,000 home with a $50,000 primary, this would be a $30,000 HELOC, so that's a rough the way the mathematics works. So I have this once this closes and I'm actually signing, I think tomorrow to close the HELOC then I will get basically it's almost looks like a checking account where this money is available for me to take out and spend on whatever the heck I want to there's no like rules on what I can or can't spend the HELOC money on and there is 10 years in which I can draw on this money or take it out. And then I believe it's another 20 years that I have to pay back on it. So that is the HELOC it is pretty much the same process as you would go through as a refinance where they'll do some sort of an appraisal on the property to determine what the value is so they determine how big of a keylock you can get you there is title involved. So this gets put into a second position behind like the primary mortgage there is you sign with a notary when you close to me All official.   Michael: So the process sounds pretty similar to like a traditional cash out refinance or traditional refinance. So yeah. Why did you opt to go for the HELOC versus a cash out refi.   Tom: I went for the HELOC? Well, this is on my primary. There's some benefits to it. One of it is you don't pay anything if you're not using, but you have that credit available. So I actually did all of this in 2020. I mean, just the fruits of having super low interest rates. So I did it initially did a refinance, I didn't take any cash out. So I kept a pretty healthy loan to value ratio, a lower loan to value ratio and instead of doing a cash out refinance for all of that equity that I had in the home, I am capturing that through the HELOC. And as I said before, the benefit of HELOC is I don't have to pay anything on the on it when I'm not using it. It's just there as like an available credit card at a super super low rate and the amount that you can take out. Depending on how much equity on your house can be super high. Like I know this one company, you can get a HELOC up to $200,000. And I can spend that on whatever I want. If I want to go buy some down payments, buy some property depending on how comfortable I am with debt and all that good stuff. Or if I want to do a personal remodel or stuff like that. It's whatever I however I want to spend that money I can.   Michael: Right on. And so process wise one isn't really any easier than the other it sounds like it's similar. What I will say that with both he locks and cash out refinances.   Tom: Oftentimes they won't even require a full appraisal. Like if you're buying a new property and buying it with a loan, they're going almost always going to require an appraiser to be on site and do that rigmarole but with key locks as well as refinances. Oftentimes, they're fine just doing a desktop appraisal. And what that is, is an appraiser just from their home looking at comps and not needing to go and do a full inspection. So it can be a little bit cheaper and faster on the on the appraisal side.   But it's the same process of like document requesting. And one of the issues that came up this time since you know we did this in pretty tight coordination where we refinanced our house then get the HELOC right after and when we refinance our house, the original lender didn't clear title completely. So there's some still some stuff that they're doing. So in the process of pulling this HELOC, they're like, hey, there's still a lien on your property. So it was probably a week and me going back and forth with the original lender and the company that's doing the HELOC and the title title company that's helping the HELOC where I'm like doing phone bridges between the new company like and what it needed to happen is they needed to notarize a document the original lender that had the original loan, you know, had to notarize a document saying we do not have this lien position anymore, blah, blah, blah. And and I probably started this process in November and it's getting close to finish and it's hard with a lot of investors are super type A and like move fast. And you know what, alright, what's next, what's next and just to be moving in this sort of slow motion it's like having a big chalkboard and some nails constantly dripping through but…   Michael: Fast as molasses.   Tom: As fast as molasses that's right.   Emil: I’m smiling and shaking my head because I just got an email telling me the same thing on this cash out the last title company, whatever hadn't cleared it when we bought it in 2017 So…   Tom: You know, though, I think the important thing to put in a context is this is kind of a moat, you know, this is a moat of the business that for a lot of people you know, it's not worth this kind of work and not that this is a lot of work it's just kind of the hands of a bunch of institutions. But I like to think of it as a moat like this type of investing strategy. There are a lot of benefits to it all the stuff we talked about with cash flow appreciation being able to you know, do things with debt and tax advantages and a reason why everyone and their mother doesn't do this is because there's this little bit of overhead that you have to deal with and a little bit of a know how and on what's available and getting through it. So something that keeps me whatever optimistic and like totally worth it is this is a little bit of a moat as in like not everybody wants to go through this process and I'm okay doing that to get the fruits of real estate investing that like that fruit taste.   Michael: The fruit to the castle, the fruits of the castle.   Emil: Yeah, you're right. It's a hassle and that's the silver lining is that probably scare some people away.   Michael: Okay, guys got anything else tidbits, additional tips, tricks to make people's lives easier and grease the skids for getting their loans done.   Emil: You had a good one that you posted on Twitter the other day about how you kind of organize files and folders. I think that'd probably be a good little message to end this episode on.   Michael: Yeah, that's a super great point, Emil. So actually, for everybody listening check out last Saturday's weekend wisdom. We actually recorded an episode talking about specifically folder structures and how we structure them to be as most efficient as possible when doing refinances or purchasing or anything lending related, or even just end of your tax planning. Having all of those documents accessible at your fingertips makes your life much easier.   Thanks so much for listening, everybody that was our episode. If you liked it, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to your podcasts, they are really, really helpful for us. So we'd love and appreciate the support and shout outs, always looking for more content. So if you have an idea for an episode that you'd like to hear, leave us a comment, and we'll talk to it. We'll see you on the next one. And happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing.   Tom: Happy investing.