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In this episode we dig into the Denver market with Tony Cline from Home Vault. homevault.com --- Transcription   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Tom Schneider. And today we have a special guest, Tony Cline, who is the chief expansion officer at home vault. And today we're going to be doing a market deep dive on the Denver market. And I'm joined with my co host,   Michael: Michael Albaum.   Tom: All right, Michael, let's get into it.   Theme song   Tom: Tony, let's learn a little bit about yourself.   Tony Yeah, so we came together, there's a few of us companies that came together. And we've been working on this for a while, that we've realized that the market is really changing. technology's changing, legislation is changing. And we started as a mastermind, trying to figure out, you know, how could we stay out in front of all of these changes as real estate investors or as a property management company and continue to provide good quality service to our clients and to our tenants? And it just turned into rather than just being a brain brainstorm, let's go ahead and let's actually create a company. So we've been working on that for about a year and a half. And we've rolled that out.   And it's really exciting to be able to see the things that we're doing to stay out in front of all of these changes, like the legislation and technology and market shifts and differences in what tenants are looking for now compared to what they were looking for in a property five years ago. That's a little bit of my professional background. My personal background is I'm an ultra marathoner and like to spend a lot of time up in the woods, running from something I guess.   Tom: Denver is a great place that are a very, I guess, hardcore would be a place to be an ultra marathoner.   Tony: Yeah, there's a lot of greats out here for sure.   Tom: Gosh what was a that book, Born to Run. It was like talking about his Yeah,   Tony Yeah. Scott Jurek is he's located out here. Now. He was from I think, Minnesota when he was in that book. But he's out here now and but up in Boulder.   Tom: Awesome. And what did you do before before Home Vault?   Tony: So before Humboldt, my company that I merged into the merger was started in 1978. And it was a company that was started in downtown Denver. And the gentleman who started it actually wanted to open a REMAX franchise in downtown Denver. And in 1978, the REMAX company said, we're not willing to open an office there, because there's not enough residential business to support an office. You know, obviously, Flash forward 40 years and, you know, the downtown Denver is booming. And there's a ton of people there, but I bought that business in 2000. And prior to that, I was in the technology business. So I had a company that focused on document and data management. And, and then in 2000, I switched over to being a full time real estate agent, property investor and property manager.   Tom: Awesome. Fantastic. Let's go ahead and jump into it. So what I'd like to do at the start of these discussion is, so we have the anchor city of Denver, how would you describe some of the other sub markets within Denver? And you know, maybe a way to do this is to kind of think about is Denver as maybe a clock or ways to kind of like have think about sub markets within Denver?   Tony: Yeah, sure. So Denver, there's actually the city and county of Denver, which is our state capitol, and from their you know, they're really like most big cities, there's no true dividing lines. When you're visually you know, legally obviously there is but when you're looking at it, just one big metropolitan area so if you were to look at that, you know, Denver kind of goes up north into like Thornton in North Glen Broomfield. If it goes off to the east, you've got Aurora, Greenwood Valley, and then South you've got down into Parker, Colorado Springs in Colorado Springs used to be its own metropolitan area. And now in between there Castle Rock is filling in there's just, well, Colorado Springs is still kind of its own unique identity. What used to be open space is now filling in. And then if you go west from Denver, you've got cities like Arvada and Golden, Lakewood, wheat Ridge, there's a lot of different sub markets with different property types.   Tom: As a property management company, where do you guys see the majority of your inventory? Where are a lot of the investors in these little sub markets? Do you guys manage a lot? And do you see trends and other you know, sub markets where there's a little bit more traction right now?   Tony: Yeah. So obviously, you know, the market has changed drastically. In in, I would think just about everywhere. What tenants are looking for, what they're moving to we we started our company in downtown Denver, and so a lot of the inventory that we've had was in that marketplace in in the early 2000s. man that was a great investment market, you could buy a property, you could sit on it for six months, you could do a little updating on it, and then turn around and in six months pull cash out to buy another one. And so, you know, at one point in time, our company we had 27 units from 15th and Larimer to 17th. In Larimer, it was a great market to continue to invest in. And then of course, we all know what happened in 2008 to 2010. That market kind of suffered, and it came back. And they're building a ton of apartment buildings in from January 1 of 2010. Through today, there have been over 25,000 new apartment units built within a one mile radius of where our office used to be at 15th. and Blake, so it's a huge booming market.   Unfortunately, COVID has taken what used to be a destination market in downtown Denver, and really turned it on its head, I mean, all the reasons you would go downtown, the sporting events, the theater, the nightlife, all of that is really sort of been shut down. And all the reasons that you don't want to live in a big city, the reminders of COVID the notes in the elevator, the making sure that you're checking your guests in and out, you know, restricting guest parking, all of these things, has had an impact. So what's interesting about that, is that while downtown Denver used to be a really big destination market, what's happening now is people are leaving those investments as tenants and moving into that next ring out. And so an area like Highlands is really popular as it's become almost as expensive or more expensive than being right in the heart of the city, then you go a little bit further, and there's area over by like Sloan's lake and a little further west. So as you start to go out from the city, those markets become a little bit more affordable as an investor to get into. But because everybody's looking in those markets, it becomes really competitive market and difficult to find a true good investment that you would want to keep for cash flow purposes.   Michael: And Tony, we were talking a little bit before the show, I used to live out in Colorado and the South East mid kind of mid central Colorado. And Denver was an awesome city. This was like a decade ago, I lived out there and Denver was an awesome city then. And I was there a couple years ago and couldn't even recognize the city, there's been so much change. So can you walk our listeners through a little bit about what's been changing, and kind of what's going on in that in that market?   Tony: Sure. So to go back a little ways, which I'll just touch on, we had a great railroad system that came through Denver, and there was some reasons why it wound up coming through Denver. And we won't get into that. But we got lucky when they decided to do that. And so we have a very historic Union Station in downtown Denver. And that became the transportation hub. And so we've got really good light rail that takes you out east, out west, north and south. And that sort of opened up people being able to move out into the suburbs and still work in the city. And so what's happened is, as the city has grown, we've gotten a better transportation system, we've got I 25, that runs through the heart of the city, north and south, we've got I 70 that goes east and west. So it's really a good area to live, if you don't want to live right next to your work. And that kind of expands the possibilities of pay. You can live anywhere and and work just about anywhere. And of course we all know that. Even with that the speed of change of what's required to live work ratio. And distance has been dramatically changed over those last year.   Michael: Yeah, that's really great insight. And then what about companies that are coming or going from Denver, as a market? Has there been much influx of new companies or companies moving in and headquarters there?     Yeah. So we used to have, he used to be back in a couple of decades ago, we were big into oil and gas. And then of course that played itself through its cycle. And then we became a big tech city. And so we've got a lot of tech companies that are here. We've got some banking companies that are here. The interesting thing is we've got a lot of companies that are an employees that actually are from the west coast that seems to be migrating in California, whether politically or financially has become not the right place for those companies to be headquartered anymore. And so we're seeing, you know, more and more moving to Colorado so we still are primarily a tech city.   Tom: I live just kind of in the suburbs of San Francisco and man, I've got a laundry list of friends that they're either going to Denver, they're going to Austin it's just this mass, that kind of Central migration.   Tony: Yeah.   Tom: How would any any like going to curious kind of specific companies you can think of? I know I think Adobe might have a big or any like, you know, like major of those companies kind of specific ones that have to get quarters.   Tony: Yeah, so we've got DaVita which is downtown, which is not necessarily tech I think they're more dialysis right yeah, yeah Alice's they've got it. They've really come into the city. unexpanded This may be the case everywhere. I don't know. But Amazon has a big presence here. Now they're building their warehouses and they've got, you know, I wouldn't call it a headquarters, they've definitely got a ton of office space that they have here plus their warehouse spaces. Yeah. But as far as like any major players, you know, I don't know that we're really bringing any of the major players in if we are I just don't know who they are. But just a lot of smaller tech companies that are moving here. It's a it's a good place to be in that industry.   Michael: Well, not in the tech genre, but isn't Coors headquartered there in Colorado as well.   Tony: That's interesting. Actually. Coors Brewing was started in Golden and I actually run by that brewery quite a bit. And they have been sold to Molson. So now it is Molson Coors,     Michael: Canadian.   Tony: I'm pretty sure. Yeah, they're in Miller Coors. And then they were sold to I don't know, it's not it was Molson. Maybe it was Miller. But anyway, they're no longer actually headquartered here. And so interesting was used to promote their beers with Rocky Mountain spring water rights, and we use that promotion anymore. So interesting out of the Rockies.   Michael: Interesting. Oh, man. Well, it's it's a good thing. You run by that. That plan. You got a Carbo load while you're running right?   Tom: Replenish, yeah.   Tony: Yeah.   Tom: Kind of related to economy and industry. Talk a little bit about the school's major universities. I know, Denver, I can, you know, top my head. DU and gonna hear about that to the education sector?   Tony: Yeah, so actually, right out in Golden, right, kind of by the Coors Brewing. You know, golden was a great historic city for us, locally, and they have the Colorado School of Mines, which is a great school. We've got d u, as you had mentioned, we have the Metropolitan MSU there is the CU Boulder, cu Denver campus. And then just about an hour north of us in Fort Collins, there's the Colorado State University, and then they're up in Greeley, we've got the school up there as well. So there's a quite a few universities here.   Tom: It's great. Yeah, Colorado School of Mines, like my brother in law went to school there fantastic engineering school. Yeah. And we touched on this a little bit, let's talk a little bit about transportation in the area. So you know, major high highway system crossing through, you talked a little about light rail, any other kind of commentary on the just kind of general transportation systems within the Denver market.   Tony: But I think one of the key components is the light rail, and just how well they've thought that out. Now, of course, with some of the pandemic, it's caused ridership to go down quite a bit. And so they're cutting back on some of the routes and that sort of thing. But just having the infrastructure there, the city and the surrounding cities actually did a really good job coming together and planning out the entire Metro district and the transportation. So light rail is big here, we've got the airport that was moved out into the eastern plains, so that it could be away from the cities and avoid the noise pollution. And then they continue to build new cities around to the airport. So we'll eventually have to deal with those issues again, but you know, DIA Denver International Airport is a major transportation hub. So we've got the light rail actually connect right from you can get off a plane, you know, land from anywhere, get off a plane, take the light rail, right into Union Station from Union Station, you can be almost anywhere in the metropolitan area.     Tom: You know, something I noticed in the Bay Area is we have our light rail system, the BART system and something I know some investors look at is as the BART is expanding to new stations looking to invest in those type of areas. Do you guys have similar types of dynamics where the light rail is continuing to grow? Or does it cover the footprint pretty well, of the lot of the properties that you guys manage in Denver?   Tony: It does actually and transportation oriented development or TODs, that's what they talk about. And typically they look at having something within a one mile radius of a light rail stop does increase the value of the property, both for when you're trying to sell it, and also the rentability of the property. This is a side note, but I'm a commissioner for the Arvada urban renewal authority. And we work on 25 year project plans. And I've been doing that as a volunteer for about 13 years. And we study the development and the layout of cities and how to build residential next to these light rail stations so that we can provide workforce housing and make sure that people who need that transportation have access to it and as a real estate investor, it's great to invest near those because they are more in demand. And then as a tenant, you know, if you have that and you have the need or the desire to no longer have a car you can get anywhere in the city from being next to one of those light rail stations.   Tom: That's fantastic and just kind of thinking about random side note. I love City and Regional plans. Gotta get super interesting that is a minor I like really like playing SimCity as a kid probably, you know, something, if I'm looking at the map of the light rail, what stations would you say, you know, are more common for investors to invest in? And basically, this is the idea for this is for listeners, if they were to pull up the map, like, which areas are the majority of you know, our investment opportunities? You see?   Tony: It's a good question, I think that that's probably not the best place to start, I think what you would want to do is start and figure out what type of investment you want to make, we all know that there's different types of investments that you can make, you can make investments based off of cash flow, you know, something that's not going to appreciate, but it's providing great cash flow, something that you're sort of rolling the dice on, it's almost paying the bills, or it's paying the bills by time you throw in your HOA, and your taxes and any rehab you have to do, but you're banking on appreciation, and we all know that those are a little bit more risky. But in Denver, the appreciation over the last five years has just gone crazy. I mean, I I kicked myself and for sell, I sold one of my properties in like 2016. And it's almost doubled in price since then, you know, we we were trying to do some things financially to where we wanted to move the money around. And, you know, you always hear investors look back and say, Wow, if I just would have held that, you know, look what it'd be worth now   Michael: I would be on a beach somewhere?     Tony: Yeah, yeah, that's the truth. You can look back and see, but so I would start with that and look at what kind of investment you want to make? And then do you want to be the person that's managing it? Do you want to hire a manager and be hands off? Are you looking for a single family home? Are you looking where then you're responsible for the roofs and the gutters and the sewer lines? Or are you looking for something that's in a condo building, or Hoa, or a lot of the external stuff is taken care of for you, but you're counting on the HOA to manage it properly, and spend the money that you're paying them monthly? So I really think it looks, it makes more sense to focus on the type of investment, and then your budget. And then once you've narrowed that down, pick a location, and then from that location, look to see how close you can get to a light rail station.   Michael: And kind of in that same vein, Tony, can you give kind of a 30,000 foot breakdown of if someone is looking for a cash flow investment or or more of an appreciation play? Where should they look, you know, north, maybe some neighborhoods or some directions from the city center?   Tony: Yeah, so obviously, we've talked a lot about downtown Denver. And that's, you know, I've got a lot of experience with that market in particular, and downtown Denver has historically continued to appreciate through the years, you know, we've had our ups and downs, just, you know, with the economic issues that we had in the late 2000s. But that area, if you're investing in there, you're probably not cash flowing. Like it's not a great market, you go and drop a bunch of cash, but you're looking at market appreciation.   Green Valley Ranch out east more by the airport, one of these newer neighborhoods that they're building, that's a good neighborhood to invest in. If you're looking for more for cash flow out in Aurora, there's a lot I know a gentleman who owns multiple multiple properties out there. And the he accepts section eight, and he's actually getting, you know, above market rents, because he's buying in an area that is a little bit more of a rougher area. And so he's going in and putting money into it, and he's renting those out accepting section eight. And so that's been a great investment strategy for him. And and we try to we have discussions about whether or not it makes sense to accept the section eight because there's pluses and minuses with it. And he's completely sold on on that. If you're looking for something more on the single family homes that's outside of downtown Denver, and you're looking for appreciation we've already mentioned Highland, so the Highland area just to the west of downtown. And then as you head out towards Arvada, Arvada has a couple of great light rail stations, and their homes are a little bit less expensive than what you might find in other areas. And then Thorton is a good area as well to try to buy something that cash flows for you.   Michael: Fantastic. And let's just take the last city you mentioned, you know, some market Thorton Can you give, of course, very generically speaking, high level idea of what a three, two single family home you would expect to sell for and what it might rent for.     Tony: Yeah, so that's, again on those on to buy something like that to get into a home in Thorton. You know, three to 350 is going to be your entry level to be able to get into it and as an investor and unfortunately, that the challenge is if you're looking in that market, in that price range, you're going to see a lot of competition, because that's sort of like the affordable investment entry level in Denver. Right? In for that three to   Tom: Is it pretty competitive amongst homeowners versus investors as well.   Tony: It is.   Tom: Great for appreciation more more buyers to the table. How about you mentioned Green Valley Ranch and I confirm that it is it's Green Valley Ranch kind of near its east kind of near a little bit south of the airport. How about price point? Is that a similar price point in rent or   Tony: It is, but they're the properties are newer than what you would typically be able to purchase? If you were to purchase up in Thornton.   Michael: And then those three twos at that three to 350 price point, what would you expect rents to be? Again, just ballparking average?   Tony: If you are looking at the typical? Three, two, you're probably at about 2500.   Michael: Okay, awesome.   Tom: Related to so you had mentioned before somebody would work with before as a pretty big section eight strategy in Aurora and likes it anything notable about the section eight within Denver as in? Are they a little bit? I don't know. Because Because it's pretty different from each municipality to on how they manage. And in any kind of general feedback of, of working with section eight in Denver versus perhaps other areas are curious to hear your feedback.   Tony: Yeah. So within the last couple of years, we've source of income has been a protected class. So you're no longer able to discriminate. People use discrimination as it's a negative word. And in in most cases, in fair housing, it is a negative word. But there still, there is legal discrimination. For example, before they legalized marijuana, and they went to the medical marijuana, what we found was in a lot of the properties, we were managing people that worked in that industry would also decide that they should, you know, regrow it at home as well, entrepreneurs. Yes. And so we did not accept applications from anybody in the medical marijuana industry. And that was not a moral judgment. It was just as simply we've we've run into too many issues with people turning the basement or even we had a high rise luxury loft a penthouse floor with, you know, glass on two sides, totally open, and they decided that they would tap directly into the building power and bypass the electrical panel. And then they hung a sprinkler system about two feet from where they bypassed any shut off and dropped a drip system. So, so we decided that we would eliminate those people from our tenant pool. And sort of similar tongue in cheek, we won't rent to any attorneys either, because they like to take your lease and give it back to you totally redlined. And so position with that is we will rent to them. But they they get to accept the lease as written.   Michael: So real quick side story. I used to work in Home Depot when I was in high school, and I get people coming in all the times like, Where are your lights, like go out 27 Oh, and by the way, potting soil is on aisle nine and systems on aisle 27. It's like we cant skip the whole song and dance. I know why we're all here.   Tony: Yeah. But to tie that back to the section eight conversation, they made it illegal to discriminate based on source of income. And so it's been a big shift for landlords and property managers here who have traditionally stayed away from that. And now they have to accept section eight. And, and to be honest with you, what we've seen is the biggest problem with section eight is not necessarily the tenant, it's the red tape and the bureaucracy, and all of the additional requirements and using the lease, that is not your lease that you came up with, that your attorney came up with, that you created over time. You know, it's it's being forced to enter into an agreement and use documentation that you don't necessarily agree with. And so once you decide that you're okay with rolling the dice and getting involved with that, then on a one off basis, it's not too bad. The issue continues to be where they'll send you one disbursement. And if you own five properties, you get to disseminate how which funds go to which properties and if somebody short pays, or if they adjust somebodies whatever it's called the rental amount that they're getting their voucher. If they adjust their voucher, you don't necessarily get noticed. And so you have to figure out, okay, who was short. And so, again, it's not necessarily that you have a problem with the tenants that move in there in this area, that that you have a problem with the government and some of the bureaucracy that goes along with that.   Tom: Yeah, leads to some little bit of accounting, counting overhead. On a sort of related note, you know, a question a lot of people ask is landlord friendly laws rent control? Where does Denver set with some of those concepts?   Tony If you would have asked me three years ago, I would have said, you know, it's the Wild West like we we could we were very landlord friendly. And not to the point where it was abusive but landlords were able to to operate a business here. And it's over the last three years, it has completely turned up on its head, we used to be able to give a three day notice for a pay or quit. So you know, it's your three day, notice when somebody has not yet paid the rent. Now, they extended that to 10 days, they wanted to do 14, then that's been extended to 30 days, because of COVID. I went and fought down at the city Capitol fought the legislation that they were trying to make it so that you could not charge tenants late fees, except for $20 or 3% of the rent, whichever was less. And so if you're going to invest in Denver, you either really need to know the laws very well or hire a property management company. And I'm not trying to, you know, put a plug in for us, obviously, I think you should hire us. But even if you don't, you should hire somebody if you're going to try to manage this from afar, because the legislation in Colorado has, has really changed the game. In in real estate investing out here, it doesn't mean it's not still a great market. And you can't find good opportunities, but it used to just be a lot easier.   Tom: And probably kind of a moving target with us, as COVID evolves to and some of that vision.   Tony: Yep.   Michael: So speaking of COVID, out in the Bay Area, San Francisco, we've seen prices, both on the rental side of things come down and on the sales side come down and now operators, especially in the multifamily space are giving out freebies incentives. What are you seeing in kind of a downtown corridor in Denver? Is it similar is our prices go up? They dropped? What do you see in there?   Tony: Yeah, so it's very similar to what you're describing out there. The the issue with Denver is that they did just build all of these brand new luxury apartments. And a lot of the the housing stock were initially those really cool funky converted lofts that had the exposed brick, wood beam, timber, you know, ceilings, and the parking was sort of an afterthought. So they dug in these sloped driveways that go down into a sloped garage. And, and people put up with that, because at that time, it was really cool. And you know, the walls in the bedrooms didn't go all the way to the ceiling. And it was just funky and cool and was edgy.   And you know, over the last 10 years or so the interests of the tenants have changed. And so what you see is a lot of the tenants that are moving in there, they're okay with living in smaller spaces. So they've built these units with smaller spaces, but they give you a ton of amenities. So there's, you know, the dog washing station bike repair station, the 24 hour concierge that the Mimosa Mondays, I mean just crazy stuff. And so you've got this issue with the older housing stock in in downtown trying to compete with the demands of the newer offerings from these apartment buildings. And it doesn't mean that there aren't some really cool condos and Lofts, and that are still attracting a lot of interest. But the challenge is, if you've got 10 properties in downtown, and you only have eight tenants that want to move in there, it's become really competitive. And so prices are dropping on rents in downtown and just even getting people to want to move into that environment with COVID going on, I think what it's doing is it's going to open up some really great investment opportunities, depending on how long COVID sticks around and how far rents drop.   But on the sales side in downtown, we're still seeing a strong sales market. And actually what's happening as people are moving out of downtown, they're moving into the surrounding suburbs. And so rent in the suburbs are actually going up because of this, where it's just a shift. So it's not the I kind of equate what's happening with COVID to dumping a five gallon bucket into a bathtub, like our market is going to absorb that five gallons of water. But it's just going to shake things up a bit. And so we'll we'll see a balancing out where people will start coming back to the city once the city's able to open back up.   Tom: I think I've noticed a similar trend in that the higher rents have really been punished a little bit more, especially for workers that have more optionality with working from home like one of our mountain destinations, Taho prices have gone way up. But you know, in the heart of San Francisco, they've dropped but in the suburbs, they continue to go up. It's you know, people who I think probably at the lower price range, I bet there's probably been more demand like you've seen, especially for single family houses for people who are looking for a little more space and getting out of an apartment complex. I mean, it's really interesting dynamics at play. I love your analogy of that dropping a five gallon bucket into a bathtub. Well, yeah, we'll shake it up a little bit, but ultimately, the buckets going to the bottom of the bathtub.   Michael: I'm curious Tony to know what you're seeing in the market in terms of Of how hard it is for sales. Because I think a lot of people when COVID first hit, were like, this is gonna be awesome, gonna pick up tons of cheap property, it's going to be great. But I think kind of nationally, we're seeing that things are still continued to be red hot. Now people that are moving out of apartments are looking to buy single family homes. So what are you seeing in the single family market out there?   Tony: Yeah, we're seeing the same thing out here, the the opportunity to pick up a bunch of great deals simply because COVID hit didn't materialize, there's still a big demand, I think, as real estate agents, they've had to learn how to adapt to be able to sell property. And you know, I think as a seller, having people come in and out of your home without being pre qualified. And, you know, I think there's still some hesitation of that. But once you've decided to sell your home, you do what it takes to sell your home. And so, you know, there was this initial period where the governor shut us down and said that we couldn't do in person showings and things like that. But we're past that now. It may be coming back, we've been given some warnings, I guess, over those last week that if we don't get things under control, that we may wind up going back to being totally shut down.   But it's the same thing. I think, in anything, people experience crisis fatigue, and so they can only be scared and wound up for so long before, they just have to start getting back to some sort of normalcy. And that's what we're seeing in the real estate industry is it paused for a brief second, and then we're back on track and sales continue to remain strong sales prices remain strong. And we're not getting the crazy, you know, 20 and 30. Multiple offer scenarios on every property like we were at one point a year or two ago. But there's still a strong demand.   Michael: I think that's super important to take note of for all of our listeners, we're recording this mid November. And depending on when you're listening to this, to keep that in mind, if you are going to be going into that market. That sounds like you're not going to be picking up properties offering 20% less than asking it, it sounds like things are still quite strong out there.   Tony: So I want to circle back around on that you talked about if people are coming to this market to invest, one of the things that I've talked a lot about some of the negatives of what's going on in downtown Denver, you know what's going on in our marketplace. But you know, those are, I still think temporary, Denver continues to be a fantastic place to live. And as you guys have already talked about people are moving here from other cities. And so it's not that people are leaving from here, it's just that the getting the great deal is is getting harder to find. The good deals are still available all over the place. The great deals are hard to find. And so, you know, we live really close to the mountains, you can be skiing, there's great lakes, there's great weather, you know, there's great entertainment, we have, I think seven professional sports teams. Like there's just a ton of stuff to do here. So it continues to be a great destination. It's just the investment environment has changed slightly and you just need to, to be able to adapt to be able to find the good deals here.   Tom: Michael, do you have any other questions you want to ask?   Michael: Now? I think I'm all tapped out. All right, Tony.   Tom: I'm going to end it with one final question. So you have two meals to get in Denver. I want to know what the restaurant is and what you're ordering. And the first category of meal is this is this is fancy date night, you know, something something special. And the second one is like oh man, I'm really hungry. I need something quick. I need something, you know, a greasy or whatever. So let me hear your input on the two restaurants and meals are good.   Tony: Okay. I love the closing questions. Okay. So the first one is there's a good restaurant downtown, I think it's probably a chain, but there's Ocean Prime is in downtown Denver is half of like 15th and market maybe. And that's a great upscale place. And the reason I like it is not only can you get a great meal there, but then you're right in the heart of everything to continue your evening with any other sort of entertainment that you'd want. The next meal that I will have to go with is there's a Mexican restaurant called de Corazon in downtown Denver. It's just a little family run Mexican restaurant, and they have just really good food. So those would be my two choices.   Tom: Love it. Awesome, Tony. Well, thank you so much for coming on with us today and for all the insights in the Denver market.     Tony: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.   Tom: Thanks, everybody for listening. If you enjoy the remote real estate investor, please like us. Subscribe. All that good stuff. Give us give us a rating and happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.